Increased lead with Schaeffer 9000?

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
JAG, I cannot send private messages. That has been turned off by the administrators.



Your private messages have been turned on. Take your disagreements to private messaging or drop it.

 

[bruce381]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
moeb - Please Post your uOA in order to provide more detail

At the levels you have indicated, both Lead and Iron are in the very acceptable range!


I would agree BUT would like to see a VOA on the oil
bruce

 

[moeb]

I don't have a VOA for the specific batch I used, but I found some numbers in this thread (where there are two numbers it's because it's patched together from two different VOAs).

Iron.......1
Antimony.......37
Molybdenum.......204/320
Boron.......5
Silicon.......9/10
Sodium.......3/5
Magnesium.......5/944 (not sure why the difference here)
Calcium.......1254/2539
Phosphorus.......856/1110
Zinc.......1047/1184
Viscosity 100C.......15.7
TBN.......9.08

 

[JAG]

So lead was 0 or near so in the VOAs you saw? Lead can be part of an additive but it's not an eco-friendly one so very few companies have used it.

Your engine sure does shear the oil: 15.7 cst to 11.8 cst. I only mention it in passing because the previous oil type you used had a similar viscosity without a similar lead reading.

 

[moeb]

I assume any elements not included in the two VOAs were zero. Don't really know, though.

Yes, this engine does an excellent job of shearing oil. That was my main reason for switching to Schaeffer's 9000, actually. The Motorcraft was often in 30w territory by 3500 miles. I was a little surprised that the Schaeffer's is only doing a smidgen better. It does make for nicer cold starts, and for some reason it stays cleaner-looking over a 5000 mile oil cycle. I assume because oxidizes slower than the MC, or filters better or something.

It's possible that the current spike is due to increased towing. The two Schaeffer runs each had one extended (over 500 miles) towing trip on them, some of which was in the hills. None of the previous oil runs saw any long trips, or big hills. Maybe that's it, I don't know. The engine still has the 9000 in it so I'll watch it and see how it does.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
RI_RS4 - You said this:
"Doug, are you a professional tribologist?"

The answer is No!

I am a RETIRED professional Tribologist*
*Definition via the Oxford Dictionary

1 - My first Paper on Used Oil Analysis was part of my Official Report to the Road Transport Industry as New Zealand's 1975 AHI Fellow (Technical - Road Transport HGV Maintenence and Technical Developments). Section 2.7 "Wear Metal Analysis"
References: (NZ) Shell,Mobil, (US) CAT, GM-GMC, Detroit Diesel Allison, (Europe) Cummins, Leyland (engine design), Saab-Scania, Volvo, Daimler-Benz

I served on the Automotive (Heavy Vehicles) Prescriptions Committee of the NZ Apprenticeship Board and the equivalent Body in NSW Australia for a number of years. I represented the Road Transport Industry

I Lectured spasmodically on Used Oil Analysis and other Technical matters in NZ, Australia and Europe from 1974 until 2004

2 - My September 1988 publication "The Commercial Vehicle Technical Handbook" (Australian Road Transport Industry "standard") of 30000 copies has Chapter 9 "Oils Fuels and Greases" as the relevant component. It is endorsed by the Commercial Vehicle Industry Association in Australia
References: (Chapter 9) Castrol, Esso

I feel quite well qualified to comment on Oil Analysis matters!

Over the last six years I have steadfastly resisted the desire to comment on BITOG's UOAs because of the random "single pass" nature of most UOAs Posted here

I don't intend to Post on UOAs in the future either - unless I feel I have something to contribute in a pragmatic and honest manner and from a reasonable knowledge base. My UOA Posts have been and will be opinions, and readers can take them or leave them - it is their choice!

This Post should NOT have been necessary!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
RI_RS4 - You said this:
"Doug, are you a professional tribologist?"

The answer is No!

I am a RETIRED professional Tribologist*
*Definition via the Oxford Dictionary

1 - My first Paper on Used Oil Analysis was part of my Official Report to the Road Transport Industry as New Zealand's 1975 AHI Fellow (Technical - Road Transport HGV Maintenence and Technical Developments). Section 2.7 "Wear Metal Analysis"
References: (NZ) Shell,Mobil, (US) CAT, GM-GMC, Detroit Diesel Allison, (Europe) Cummins, Leyland (engine design), Saab-Scania, Volvo, Daimler-Benz

I served on the Automotive (Heavy Vehicles) Prescriptions Committee of the NZ Apprenticeship Board and the equivalent Body in NSW Australia for a number of years. I represented the Road Transport Industry

I Lectured spasmodically on Used Oil Analysis and other Technical matters in NZ, Australia and Europe from 1974 until 2004

2 - My September 1988 publication "The Commercial Vehicle Technical Handbook" (Australian Road Transport Industry "standard") of 30000 copies has Chapter 9 "Oils Fuels and Greases" as the relevant component. It is endorsed by the Commercial Vehicle Industry Association in Australia
References: (Chapter 9) Castrol, Esso

I feel quite well qualified to comment on Oil Analysis matters!

Over the last six years I have steadfastly resisted the desire to comment on BITOG's UOAs because of the random "single pass" nature of most UOAs Posted here

I don't intend to Post on UOAs in the future either - unless I feel I have something to contribute in a pragmatic and honest manner and from a reasonable knowledge base. My UOA Posts have been and will be opinions, and readers can take them or leave them - it is their choice!

This Post should NOT have been necessary!


Doug:

I agree that the above should not have been necessary. I want you to know that there are those of us (and quite a few who do not post here) that appreciate your insight and information based on your extensive experience.

 

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
RI_RS4 - You said this:
"Doug, are you a professional tribologist?"

The answer is No!

I am a RETIRED professional Tribologist*
*Definition via the Oxford Dictionary

1 - My first Paper on Used Oil Analysis was part of my Official Report to the Road Transport Industry as New Zealand's 1975 AHI Fellow (Technical - Road Transport HGV Maintenence and Technical Developments). Section 2.7 "Wear Metal Analysis"
References: (NZ) Shell,Mobil, (US) CAT, GM-GMC, Detroit Diesel Allison, (Europe) Cummins, Leyland (engine design), Saab-Scania, Volvo, Daimler-Benz

I served on the Automotive (Heavy Vehicles) Prescriptions Committee of the NZ Apprenticeship Board and the equivalent Body in NSW Australia for a number of years. I represented the Road Transport Industry

I Lectured spasmodically on Used Oil Analysis and other Technical matters in NZ, Australia and Europe from 1974 until 2004

2 - My September 1988 publication "The Commercial Vehicle Technical Handbook" (Australian Road Transport Industry "standard") of 30000 copies has Chapter 9 "Oils Fuels and Greases" as the relevant component. It is endorsed by the Commercial Vehicle Industry Association in Australia
References: (Chapter 9) Castrol, Esso

I feel quite well qualified to comment on Oil Analysis matters!

Over the last six years I have steadfastly resisted the desire to comment on BITOG's UOAs because of the random "single pass" nature of most UOAs Posted here

I don't intend to Post on UOAs in the future either - unless I feel I have something to contribute in a pragmatic and honest manner and from a reasonable knowledge base. My UOA Posts have been and will be opinions, and readers can take them or leave them - it is their choice!

This Post should NOT have been necessary!


Doug:

I agree that the above should not have been necessary. I want you to know that there are those of us (and quite a few who do not post here) that appreciate your insight and information based on your extensive experience.


Same with myself....keep up with the good info, Doug.
Thanks.

 

[tdi-rick]

I wonder if lead napthanate is being used as an additive ?

 

[moeb]

If so, it's a trade secret.

http://www.schaefferoil.com/msdspdf/9000.pdf

It also doesn't explain the increase between reports.

 

[dnewton3]

I'm not convinced that oil-shearing is a "given" with all the 6.0L PSDs. My next door neighbor runs Rotella 10w-30 year round in his '05 6.0L, and he sees little to no shearing, with OCIs tyipcally around 7.5k miles. I've put a couple of his UOAs up over the years here. The shearing seems to be somewhat of an individual issue from engine to engine, rather than some assured quirk that all PSDs will experience. I'd say it's certainly prevelant enough to warrant watching for it. But it's not a given to happen in all PSDs with all oils.

Oddly enough, it seems to happen more with oils of a 40 grade more often than a 30 grade. Perhaps a lighter grade oil doesn't shear as badly, or at all, because it's just thin enough to work, while not being as resistive in viscosity? Maybe the HEUI actually prefers a 30 grade, and it's design drives the oil down to what works?

(off topic - Doug, your comments are always welcome in my camp. While I don't belive everything you say is the gospel, your opinions and experiences are every bit as valid as mine, and others ...)

 

[moeb]

Just to be clear, when I said "this engine" I meant "my engine."

I guess it's possible that the HEUI "actually prefers a 30 grade." It may even prefer a lighter grade for all I know. However, the same oil driving the HEUI also protects mains, rods, cylinders, etc. In my neck of the woods, with summers averaging in the 90s and occasional 100+ degree days fairly common, 30w won't do the job. Especially when towing.

 

[1OilLover]

Originally Posted By: moeb
Just to be clear, when I said "this engine" I meant "my engine."

I guess it's possible that the HEUI "actually prefers a 30 grade." It may even prefer a lighter grade for all I know. However, the same oil driving the HEUI also protects mains, rods, cylinders, etc. In my neck of the woods, with summers averaging in the 90s and occasional 100+ degree days fairly common, 30w won't do the job. Especially when towing.


I wish we could find out what Schaeffer's did to explain the increased lead wears #'s!

I really want to use Schaeffer's, but I'm not using it again until my (suddenly) increased lead #'s aren't explained by someone "in the know".

I want to feel good again about using this oil.

 

[dnewton3]

I also have a diesel; a Dmax. I run Rotella 10w-30 year round. I don't fear oil-related wear at all. My neighbor runs the same oil in his 6.0L PSD. I pull a travel trailer all summer long; at least 2x a month. I've been in TN; it's hot, but no hotter than when I was in SD at 95+ deg F running 75 mph along I-90. For comparison, I ran a 15w-40 the year before, and I consumed about 2 quarts of oil for the 3500 mile trip. The next year, I ran the 10w-30 for about 3000 miles; consumed about 2 quarts of oil. The lighter grade might evaporate a tad quicker, but that just means I get to top-off a bit sooner, and that means a replenished add-pack. The numbers are too sparse to be a true study, but the impression is that 10w-30 HDEOs do as well as 15w-40 HDEOs as a general rule. There are some of us that are finding that a lighter grade does fine.

The general BITOG grade bigotry that exists around the HDEO crowd is slowly fading; I know - I was one of them! You don't have to run a 40 grade to get good protection. People used to think the same about PCMO's, but there's good evidence to show that 20 grades fair very well. I'm not trying to talk you into a 30 grade; you should run what you want to run. I just don't think you should be afraid of one without trying it out, and tracking the UOAs for a while.


Regardless, that doesn't address the lead issue with this UOA; I was merely commenting on the previous topic of the shearing that some had made. Shearing seems to be a bit more prevelant with a 6.0L, but it's not a sure bet all the time.

Also, while I'm a big believer in synthetics for extended OCIs, I'm beginning to question if synthetics in diesels make sense for most of us. I am not seeing all that much gain in extended OCIs, relative to the expense. I watch the diesel UOAs closely, and it seems the advantage of synthetics over dinos is not near as great in HDEOs as in the PCMOs.

Worst case scenario is that the Schaeffer 9000 is working fine, and the lead is actually showing an event in the engine that the oil neither caused, nor can control. That is the true worry here.

 

[moeb]

Interesting to know, dnewton. I guess one way to look at it is, since the factory recommended oil usually shears down to 30 weight well before reaching the factory recommended oil change interval of 5000 miles, maybe 30 weight oil is fine in these engines. Until my engine is no longer under warranty, though, I'm sticking to Ford's oil specs, which require 40W for heavy towing in ambient temperates above 50°F with this engine.

I'm also not interested in extended OCIs other than to "extend" my OCIs from the 3500 miles or so the 40w Motorcraft oil was giving before shearing down to 30w, to about 5000 miles of 40w viscosity. The S9000 seems to be an improvement so far, but not to the extent I was hoping. Time will tell, though.

BTW, at first I was not that happy with MC oil since my iron levels were fairly high, but these actually came down a couple of OCIs before I switched to Schaeffer. Of course, I had to run short OCIs to get it down.

 

[dnewton3]

I understand how you feel about warranty. My Dmax is covered for 100k miles, but I have to OCI no less than once a year, per warranty. Since I only drive my truck about 5-6k miles a year, I end up dumping a perfectly good HDEO/filter before it's used up. Such a waste! Even though I change the oil, I'm purposely letting the OLM go without being reset, to see just when my operating pattern would dictate a change, rather than the calendar. Just as an experiment ...

It'll be interesting to see how the lead plays along with the continued use of Schaeffers; keep us posted please!

 

[Bambam]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
RI_RS4 - You said this:
"Doug, are you a professional tribologist?"

The answer is No!

I am a RETIRED professional Tribologist*
*Definition via the Oxford Dictionary

1 - My first Paper on Used Oil Analysis was part of my Official Report to the Road Transport Industry as New Zealand's 1975 AHI Fellow (Technical - Road Transport HGV Maintenence and Technical Developments). Section 2.7 "Wear Metal Analysis"
References: (NZ) Shell,Mobil, (US) CAT, GM-GMC, Detroit Diesel Allison, (Europe) Cummins, Leyland (engine design), Saab-Scania, Volvo, Daimler-Benz

I served on the Automotive (Heavy Vehicles) Prescriptions Committee of the NZ Apprenticeship Board and the equivalent Body in NSW Australia for a number of years. I represented the Road Transport Industry

I Lectured spasmodically on Used Oil Analysis and other Technical matters in NZ, Australia and Europe from 1974 until 2004

2 - My September 1988 publication "The Commercial Vehicle Technical Handbook" (Australian Road Transport Industry "standard") of 30000 copies has Chapter 9 "Oils Fuels and Greases" as the relevant component. It is endorsed by the Commercial Vehicle Industry Association in Australia
References: (Chapter 9) Castrol, Esso

I feel quite well qualified to comment on Oil Analysis matters!

Over the last six years I have steadfastly resisted the desire to comment on BITOG's UOAs because of the random "single pass" nature of most UOAs Posted here

I don't intend to Post on UOAs in the future either - unless I feel I have something to contribute in a pragmatic and honest manner and from a reasonable knowledge base. My UOA Posts have been and will be opinions, and readers can take them or leave them - it is their choice!

This Post should NOT have been necessary!


Doug:

I agree that the above should not have been necessary. I want you to know that there are those of us (and quite a few who do not post here) that appreciate your insight and information based on your extensive experience.


I too look foward to Doug's take on things,fair and unbiased!

 

[Steve S]

I will tell you guys something I have learned after 23 years of fleet maintenace and repair type work .Nobody knows more of what works and what doesn't work and what is or is not cost effective in use and service than people who manage fleets for a living. I would trust their opinion than an article you read or what someone says who is trying to sell you a product.

 

[digitalSniperX1]

Doug, I must say I'm always interested in reading your posts. And now I must say am impressed with your self control, dignity and having a knack for STHU posts.

No, your post shouldn't have been necessary, but turned out it was and was a delight to read.

 

[mettech]

I had the same issue with lead in my '05 F-350 when using B5 and B99 during a OCI.

Try using only B5 or less and see what happens.