In thick vs thin don't forget the additives

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
[
You really need to study John B Haywoods text on IC engines, specifically Pages 731 to 734, where the oil film thickness varies from 0.25 um to 7 um, depending on load.

Figure 13-18 on page 731 describes the pressure profile of the compression ring on the oil film and it is a vertical wedge.


That book is over $200. Is it a vertical wedge because the ring is assumed to be tapered?

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: novadude
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Key point here. And as mentioned in the past few days, bearing design is changing to accommodate hydrodynamic lubrication using the thinner oils, but not drastically.



From what I'm reading it is pretty drastic. Going from a trimetal design with lead, zinc and copper to a silicon impregnated aluminum.

Now I wonder if we will have updated replacements for old stuff like my frist gen small block chevy.


What do you mean? Al-Si bi-metal bearings? They've been on the market for SBCs for several years now. I just used a set of King SI bearings in a 1969 350 I built last summer. They are actually cheaper than a traditional Clevite 77 tri-metal. Federal-Mogul has them, King has them, etc. Pretty common Gen 1 SBC rebuild parts.

http://kingbearings.com/files/Engine_Bearing_Materials.pdf


TV turns a lot of wrenches, eh? I mean, those pieces have only been available for a decade or more.

Natural mechanical aptitude. Looks like many of us have caught on, he's the only one that don't get it yet.

Watching and enjoying the train wreck...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
That book is over $200. Is it a vertical wedge because the ring is assumed to be tapered?


And what's the price on learning, from a book that is actually one of the masterpiece works on engines ?

Some people can't tell a roll centre from a rolaid...books help them tell the difference when their intuition tells them otherwise.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The old [censored] cast iron rings I put on my SBC don't looked tapered. Maybe its so slight I just couldn't tell. I've seen the advanced stuff used in drag racing like holes drilled in the piston top to channel pressure to the back side of the ring to get extra ring pressure against the cylinder wall on the power stroke.





Uh-oh, better watch out there, turtlevette. Gas ported pistons go back at least to the early 70's when Grumpy Jenkins was using them in his pro stock Vega. And you're setting yourself up as our emissary from reality? You apparently think that history began the day you were born.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
[Here's something a little more recent Link
See slides 17-19.


I read thru that. All the R&D is going into CAFE oils. But you experts think it's a government conspiracy and we should use good ole 20W-50? Been there done that wore out my 350.

 

[kschachn]

Nah, see the problem is that you claim to be an engineer of some sort.

What kind, exactly? Where did you go to school and what is your degree?

My problem is that from what I see you post, a degree in any of the mechanical sciences is simply out of the question.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
You're dead wrong at the outset, turtlevette. The Stribeck curve is a general description of lubrication between sliding surfaces, whether they are planar or curved.

Surely you understand there is a difference. The ring scrapes oil. The bearing traps oil in a wedge.

I'm a bit disappointed being you are a Corvette owner and all.

Some people just don't have an intuitive feel for this stuff. You know. A mechanical aptitude.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Solarent
[Here's something a little more recent Link
See slides 17-19.


I read thru that. All the R&D is going into CAFE oils. But you experts think it's a government conspiracy and we should use good ole 20W-50? Been there done that wore out my 350.



Personally, I don't think it is a gov. conspiracy. I don't like CAFE rules anymore than anyone else. In my view, I think so much of this regulation is artificial and simply beauracratic nonsense. By artificial, I mean based on someone's whim as to some Utopian idea, and not based on science.

But away from the political realm and back to the topic at hand.

It does force mechanical engineers to develop better surface finishes and engine components to reduce friction, and it forces tribologists and chemists to come up with more fuel efficient lubricants.

I do lubricant development for 1/4 mile dragster enthusiasts and dirt track circle racers.

I formulate 20W50 for the dirt track circle racers but only because of the XXthanol fuel content.

For 1/4 mile dragster enthusiasts we use 0W30's and no engine has failed because of the oils viscosity.

Both engines are of the 350 Cubic inch variety and highly modified.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I read thru that. All the R&D is going into CAFE oils. But you experts think it's a government conspiracy and we should use good ole 20W-50? Been there done that wore out my 350.

Think about it. CAFE is a government conspiracy because CAFE is a product of the legislative process where Congress passed the law, the President signed it, and the Executive branch bureaucracy enforces it. So there is a large group of government functionaries that are conspiring to force the automakers reach certain targets in Corporate Average Fuel Economy. Tell me what parts I have written here that are untrue.

And who in this thread has advocated using 20w50?

Direct answers please. No more constructing straw men in an attempt to change the subject.

 

[jrustles]

What's going on in here!?

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I read thru that. All the R&D is going into CAFE oils. But you experts think it's a government conspiracy and we should use good ole 20W-50? Been there done that wore out my 350.

Think about it. CAFE is a government conspiracy because CAFE is a product of the legislative process where Congress passed the law, the President signed it, and the Executive branch bureaucracy enforces it. So there is a large group of government functionaries that are conspiring to force the automakers reach certain targets in Corporate Average Fuel Economy. Tell me what parts I have written here that are untrue.


Don't get caught up with aptitude by definition, now. We all know 'conspiracy' is synonymous with 'incredulity' right turt?

Quote:

And who in this thread has advocated using 20w50?

Direct answers please. No more constructing straw men in an attempt to change the subject.



I tell ya, the guy works on a hay farm.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
It does force mechanical engineers to develop better surface finishes and engine components to reduce friction, and it forces tribologists and chemists to come up with more fuel efficient lubricants.

I do lubricant development for 1/4 mile dragster enthusiasts and dirt track circle racers.

I formulate 20W50 for the dirt track circle racers but only because of the XXthanol fuel content.

For 1/4 mile dragster enthusiasts we use 0W30's and no engine has failed because of the oils viscosity.

Both engines are of the 350 Cubic inch variety and highly modified.


The Government is pushing the industry. That's a good thing. A [censored] good thing.

Understood on the 20W-50. I just don't think it has any business in a street car.

I trashed my beloved GN turbo engine using M1 15W-50.

 

[Zaedock]

We had a member here - BuickGN - who's 650HP 3.8L Turbo would only live with 20W50 conventional. The abuse and carnage was documented.

 

[Zaedock]

Not saying I am for/against thick or thin.

I run 5w20 in my Ford tow rigs and have moved to 5W30 for my toys. IMO, there is no need for anything else with today's base and additive technologies (unless the manufacturer requires it).

My brother runs Mobil 1 in his highly modified Olds drag car. He's NEVER had a lubrication issue.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
turtlevette,

This site is down to about four guys that visit regularly and actually know what they are talking about. You are arguing with three of them. It has nothing to do with worship. Heck, it has little to do with respect either. You need to learn whom it is you are trying to argue with and pick your battles.



I rarely agree with you however this is a home run.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
turtlevette,

This site is down to about four guys that visit regularly and actually know what they are talking about. You are arguing with three of them. It has nothing to do with worship. Heck, it has little to do with respect either. You need to learn whom it is you are trying to argue with and pick your battles.



I rarely agree with you however this is a home run.

They've shared plenty in this thread, addressed turt's concerns etc why is he still confused? Are we getting trolled!

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I trashed my beloved GN turbo engine using M1 15W-50.


Have you heard of the "placebo" effect, well there's also the "nocebo" effect, and I think that you are confusing yourself here.

"I trashed my GN engine", and
"I used 15W-50"

can both be statements of fact...

"I trashed my engine because I ran M1 15W-50" is drawing a straw that isn't there.

GM specified 20W-50 for the 3.8, 15W-40 for cold conditions, in Oz...OEM would never specifiy an oil grade that would "trash" an engine.

 

[Brent_G]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
It does force mechanical engineers to develop better surface finishes and engine components to reduce friction, and it forces tribologists and chemists to come up with more fuel efficient lubricants.

I do lubricant development for 1/4 mile dragster enthusiasts and dirt track circle racers.

I formulate 20W50 for the dirt track circle racers but only because of the XXthanol fuel content.

For 1/4 mile dragster enthusiasts we use 0W30's and no engine has failed because of the oils viscosity.

Both engines are of the 350 Cubic inch variety and highly modified.


The Government is pushing the industry. That's a good thing. A [censored] good thing.

Understood on the 20W-50. I just don't think it has any business in a street car.

I trashed my beloved GN turbo engine using M1 15W-50.




How did the 15w50 trash the engine?

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

"I trashed my GN engine", and
"I used 15W-50"

can both be statements of fact...



Indeed!

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I trashed my beloved GN turbo engine using M1 15W-50.


Have you heard of the "placebo" effect, well there's also the "nocebo" effect, and I think that you are confusing yourself here.

"I trashed my GN engine", and
"I used 15W-50"

can both be statements of fact...

"I trashed my engine because I ran M1 15W-50" is drawing a straw that isn't there.

GM specified 20W-50 for the 3.8, 15W-40 for cold conditions, in Oz...OEM would never specifiy an oil grade that would "trash" an engine.



Ole turts got so many bales of straw he's multitasking.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
They've shared plenty in this thread, addressed turt's concerns etc why is he still confused? Are we getting trolled!


Maybe I don't agree with your answers, philosophy or political leanings that invariably are a part of your makeup.

That goes for clevy, steve, AHarman, and and several others. We are never going to agree on anything, especially if it concerns ethanol, oil science, or the "evil" corn lobby.

I think you're trolling me.