In defense of the Short OCI

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After much thought, here are some advantages that short, 3-4K drains have over long drains:

1) Short, 3-4K drains will limit engine damage and sludge buildup in the event of coolant leaks that occur in between oil analysis samplings.
2) Short, 3-4K drains will limit abnormal engine wear from dirt ingestion due to an air filter or intake system leak.
3) Short, 3-4K drains will limit abnormal engine wear and extreme viscosity change in the event of a severe fuel dilution problem.
4) During a short drain, higher levels of detergency present in the oil may lead to fewer solids, varnish, and deposit buildup.
5) When an oil filter is run for a short period of time, there is a lesser chance of filter failure.

Please correct me if I’m wrong,
Mike
 
6)Short, 3-4K drains will use up the 6 cases of oil you bought on sale faster
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Mike, I guess shorter is always better. However, as you know, I have a new Honda Ridgeline with an OLM. According to the manual, OCIs are to be performed not by mileage but oil life expectancy, as indicated on the monitor. They say to change the oil when the oil life expectancy is between 15% and 0% (service due and service past due notices, respectively). They do make one exception and that is if you drive so few miles that the service notice never comes on, go ahead and change the oil once a year.

According to owners at the Ridgeline forum, the service due notice comes up between 5,000 and 7,000 miles depending on engine load and driving habits. Right now I have close to 4000 miles on my Ridge and the OLM shows oil life expectancy of 50% (which means it is somewhere between 40% and 50%).

Maybe Hondas are different but it seems like you can keep the engine in warranty for sure by taking a picture of the OLM notice and keeping oil change receips that mirror the mileage shown along with the OLM notice. And this would be nearly double the "usual" 3-4K OCI.
 
Mike, you and I have come to the same conclusion.

Seems the best way to minimize dirt, etc. in the oil, and ensure fresh additives is to change the oil.

I used synthetic for about 20 yrs.......but after joining this forum find myself either using Havoline, or Motorcraft 5w-20 and using Super Tech filters and doing 3k changes. All in the cost is ~$10-11....and for me........appears to be the most reasonable way to go.

just my opinion.
 
I gotta admit to being just the opposite. The last several cars I've owned, mostly Chevy's, called for the infamous 3mos/3k oci which I followed religiously.It was almost always 3 months because it very seldom went 3k in that amount of time. I sold my 95 Lumina with 72k to my brother last year and he laughed about the stack of receipts in a folder in the glovebox documenting every change.I have now switched to M1 and will go by the OLM in my new van which will probably result in 2 changes a year. I wasted a lot of time and money on those 3 month changes but at the time I was doing what I thought was the right thing to keep it in warranty compliance.
 
#1-3 apply to your engine in malfunction mode. I'm not sure changing the oil will fix the problems.

#4 May apply if the oil is not up to the extended drain
#5 Again malfunction.

None of these apply to my cars.

I think the worst thing about short OCI's is changing oil during the Christmas Holiday ice storm.....
Waste oil and conserving oil should be considered a drawback to overly short OCI's.
 
Yes, I agree with conservation. But I just can't go longer than 6 months. My p/u sees a lot of short trips but few miles over a 6 month stretch, so sometimes it has 1500 miles on a 6 month oilchange. BTW the oil looks pretty dirty after 6 months. I use Havoline 10W-30 Dino mixed with Rotella or Delo 15w40 (50/50).
 
Where is the thread talking about the increased wear in the first 2000 miles of an oil change? Seems that would be a good argument against the 3k OCI.
I used to be a 3k OCI, but came here and realised I could go longer depending on the situation. I now go ~7500 miles on my car and 6 months (> 5000 miles) on my wife's SUV.
My view on dino vs syn has changed little, but my eyes have been opened as to what are the better dino oils.
 
Mike:

Nothing really "wrong" about your ideas, although I'd add these thoughts.

Your list of hypotheses:
1) Short, 3-4K drains will limit engine damage and sludge buildup in the event of coolant leaks that occur in between oil analysis samplings.
2) Short, 3-4K drains will limit abnormal engine wear from dirt ingestion due to an air filter or intake system leak.
3) Short, 3-4K drains will limit abnormal engine wear and extreme viscosity change in the event of a severe fuel dilution problem.
4) During a short drain, higher levels of detergency present in the oil may lead to fewer solids, varnish, and deposit buildup.
5) When an oil filter is run for a short period of time, there is a lesser chance of filter failure.


As to 1) and 3), whether or not you catch such things in time will to a substantial degree be a matter of luck. Either fuel or coolant being where it shouldn't be (in the oil) could very quickly kill your engine (but slow leaks might mean slow death too, and if so, 1 and 3 make a lot of sense). And many of the folks who follow the short OCI program justify it in part as a way to avoid having to bother with UOA. If you did do UOA with every 3/3 change, and you were lucky, both would be correct.

As to 2), if you're in a very dirty environment, all bets are off. This from a hard-core syn guy; use good dino and change often, if you're not going to test. Also, regular short OCI would indeed catch a sneaky intake leak that was letting bad stuff in unseen. There are risks and benefits in any approach, and I suppose this would be one of the risks of the long drain approach. Personally, I tend to my own air filter, which in a G35 can been clearly viewed in its installed location through the supplemental intake. Changing it, however, requires substantial manipulation of the intake plumbing. I'm careful with it, and inspect it often for just that reason. I hope that's enough. . .

As to 4), at least with my vehicles and usage, neither my UOA nor the view into my engines seems to indicate that I've crossed the threshold of inadequate detergency. Think of oil like dishwater. New dishwater looks and smells pretty, but it really does not clean dishes any better than half-used dishwater. When the suds are gone and you can feel grease on your hands, though, you know it's past time to change.

And to finish, let me beat on poor old Fram for a moment. Despite the awful reputation (amongst those who know) of the paper end cap specials, really, how often do we hear of them actually failing. I've heard a few stories, but no widespread meltdowns as far as I can tell. That said, I'd never use one. Use a sturdy filter from a reputable maker, and the probability of filter failure is extraordinarily low.

In the end, however, you should only go as far as you are comfortable going, all things considered. For many, there should be an item 6) on your list, which would read, "I just can't let go of the short OCI no matter what I learn. . ." That's not a slam or poke in the eye. If you feel that way, that's fine. In most cases, though, people can take their oil a good bit further than they actually do.
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blupupher
From Synthetic oil life study

While the wear metals all accumulated steadily over the course of the test, the highest concentrations of accumulation per mile occurred
Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages. This has also been substantiated in testing conducted by Ford Motor Co. and ConocoPhillips, and reported in SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119. What this means is that compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it.


in the first 3,000 miles of the test! From the 3,000-mile mark all the way to 18,000 miles, only lead showed an increase in per-mile wear beyond 3,000 miles. Yet even with an increased wear rate, lead wore the least in terms of absolute wear. For iron and copper, the longer the oil remained in service, the lower the wear rate got.

http://www.swri.edu/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
 
The more often you change the oil,

- the more likely you will introduce an abrasive contaminant into the engine via the "fresh" oil.

- the more likely you'll suffer increased wear after starting up the engine the first time after the oil change. People are bothered by cold starts, but what about dry starts? I'm pretty sure the oil pump will pump at least some air the first few dozen revolutions!

- the more likely bees and worse will fly into your engine while the filler hole is open.
 
quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
The more often you change the oil,

- the more likely you will introduce an abrasive contaminant into the engine via the "fresh" oil.

- the more likely you'll suffer increased wear after starting up the engine the first time after the oil change. People are bothered by cold starts, but what about dry starts? I'm pretty sure the oil pump will pump at least some air the first few dozen revolutions!

- the more likely bees and worse will fly into your engine while the filler hole is open.


Bees will fly into your engine.
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Yeah maybe I'll agree about the startup wear. BUT that is probably still even less wear that may occur to your engine from a dirt leak over an ext. OCI, or a coolant leak, or excessive fuel dilution.

Mike
 
The synthetic oil life study also covered top up oil and a current policy is bleed & feed - draining out 10% and refreshing with new oil to top up additive levels and protect the base-stock.
 
quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
{snip}
- the more likely bees and worse will fly into your engine while the filler hole is open.


So why is this so far-fetched??? Especially those of us who use GC with its signature "Gummy Bear" aroma must be doubly diligent. Bees and other such creatures will naturally be attracted to the sweet smell, and be so overcome by the rich fruitiness that they will ignore their survival instincts and forge ahead through the little hole and into the hellishly hot, oily confines of a just-drained crankcase. . .

So, I just have to know, what were you envisioning in the "...and worse..." part of this?
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As Pablo pointed out, the points you make refer to oil-related conditions as symptoms of mechanical problems.

crushedcar.gif


It's not hard to imagine how you could eventually be seen staring under the hood wondering why it won't start and considering whether or not to change the oil.
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The main reason I stick to 4-5K intervals is the quality of good dinos today. I just can't justify the cost of synthetic. Based on UOA's I have settled upon 5K or 6 months using Havoline dino and Motorcraft blend.
 
IMO, unless your driving style dictates it (or you have a sludge monster), a short OCI is simply a waste of time & money.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Crack_Tan:
The unfortunate reason I must go with a 5k/3mth OCI is for warranty reasons.
C.T.


C.T., as I recall your vehicle is a Vibe. The 05 manual allows for a maximum OCI of 7500 miles or 12 months.
 
Boxgrover,

If you don't mind me asking, what page is that on in your owner's manual? My owner's manual only lists one service schedule (as does www.mygmlink.com ):

Engine Oil and Filter Change
Change engine oil and filter
Interval: Every 5000 miles or 3 months, whichever occurs first.

Now I know there has been some discussion about this in the www.genvibe.com forum and that other intervals are listed at different mileage/times which make it confusing (tire rotations are a good example).

I'd really love to stretch out the OCI to 6.5K/6mth if the warranty isn't in jeopardy.

C.T.
 
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