I'd be all over this Buick Avista....

[Gasbuggy]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

GM has a sad history of letting their better brands age poorly, and giving all the attention and advertising to lowest-common-denominator Chevrolet. Pontiac- lost all its sporty identity selling re-badged Cavaliers and vanished. Oldsmobile- same story (and the irony of the 'not your father's Oldsmobile' ad campaign was just sad- your "fathers Oldsmobile" might have been a 442 with a fire-breathing 455, whereas what they were advertising was an anemic front-drive POS with a rattling Chevy v6 under the hood.) Buick- been sliding down the same slippery slope for 20 years, but somehow hanging on. It would be great if they could turn it around the same way Cadillac has turned its image around since the 90s when the Cadillac buyer mean age got up well over 50...


I'm trying to think when the last time Pontiac sold a car was "their own", probably the 1981 Trans Am Turbo? What Cadillac has pulled off is impressive, I'd like to see Ford invest some real money into Lincoln. Cadillac has now moved up their pricing to match the companies they were undercutting and I'm not so sure that will work for them. Their brand has cache but sales are weak/flat.

In 2005 when I was a freshman in college I almost bought a very low mileage 1994 Cadillac STS. Everyone I asked what they thought said pretty much the same thing. "old man car." Some girls said "eww, no." My dad liked it. I passed on that STS only because of Northstar concerns. Then in 2011 I bought a CTS-V and everyone seems to like that. Cadillac had become cool in a short time. They will never get back to the status level of the 50's-60's though.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

GM has a sad history of letting their better brands age poorly, and giving all the attention and advertising to lowest-common-denominator Chevrolet. Pontiac- lost all its sporty identity selling re-badged Cavaliers and vanished. Oldsmobile- same story (and the irony of the 'not your father's Oldsmobile' ad campaign was just sad- your "fathers Oldsmobile" might have been a 442 with a fire-breathing 455, whereas what they were advertising was an anemic front-drive POS with a rattling Chevy v6 under the hood.) Buick- been sliding down the same slippery slope for 20 years, but somehow hanging on. It would be great if they could turn it around the same way Cadillac has turned its image around since the 90s when the Cadillac buyer mean age got up well over 50...


I'm trying to think when the last time Pontiac sold a car was "their own", probably the 1981 Trans Am Turbo?


I'd agree, although maybe partial credit for the Holden-based G8 and GTO, since no other GM division in North America sold anything remotely comparable.

The last true Buick was probably the late 1990s Rivera, and the last true Oldsmobile was the Aurora. Yes, those shared a platform, but the Buick got an in-house supercharged 3800, and the Olds got an Olds-only version of the Northstar.

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Joel_MD
My father and grandfather primarily drove Buicks throughout their lives. I'm in my mid-40s and have found Buicks to be very ho-hum for decades, although I like the direction the company has been going recently. I could see myself buying a Buick Avista if it goes into production, and without too much adulteration from the concept vehicle.


GM has a sad history of letting their better brands age poorly, and giving all the attention and advertising to lowest-common-denominator Chevrolet. Pontiac- lost all its sporty identity selling re-badged Cavaliers and vanished. Oldsmobile- same story (and the irony of the 'not your father's Oldsmobile' ad campaign was just sad- your "fathers Oldsmobile" might have been a 442 with a fire-breathing 455, whereas what they were advertising was an anemic front-drive POS with a rattling Chevy v6 under the hood.) Buick- been sliding down the same slippery slope for 20 years, but somehow hanging on. It would be great if they could turn it around the same way Cadillac has turned its image around since the 90s when the Cadillac buyer mean age got up well over 50...



Buick's gotten a lot better about having differentiated products lately. Verano, Enclave, and Encore are all quite different than their Chevy counterparts. Obviously different sheetmetal. Different and much nicer interiors, different engines for the Verano and Encore, and different suspension tuning. Features that generally aren't available at any price point in a Chevy-branded vehicle.

If this is similarly a luxed-up Camaro platform with some unique twists to it worthy of the price tag, Buick could well sell a bunch of these. Maybe offer a smaller-engined version in China with the TTV6 as the range-topping engine over there. Better make the passenger seat extra-special, though...

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Paint it black, make the interior black and silver, turn up the boost on the twin turbo V-6, call it a Grand National, and you then have what Buick is really planning with that car.

Yes, there will be a version of this car named Grand National.

BC.


This. Bring back the turbo 3800 and shove it under the hood. No 4 banger please!

 

[edwardh1]

neighbor has a Lucerne, has had 2 expensive repairs on it, motor mounts, and then some type hard to diagnose / repair fuel pump relay assembly in the rear seat area, at dealer both were close to $1000 each to fix.
she said whyu didn't I get a Toyota or honda ?
why I thought

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Paint it black, make the interior black and silver, turn up the boost on the twin turbo V-6, call it a Grand National, and you then have what Buick is really planning with that car.

Yes, there will be a version of this car named Grand National.

BC.


This. Bring back the turbo 3800 and shove it under the hood. No 4 banger please!


There's no need to bring back the turbo 3800, though it is fondly remembered. The 3.0L twin-turbo V6 has 400 HP, which is a lot more than even the GNX had in the late '80's. The ATS-V Spec 3.6L twin-turbo makes 464 HP. That would be a worthy engine to put in a car with Grand National badges.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm


This. Bring back the turbo 3800 and shove it under the hood. No 4 banger please!


There's no need to bring back the turbo 3800, though it is fondly remembered.


Agreed, I wouldn't want a turbo 3800 in a modern car any more than I'd want a 440 Magnum in my SRT-8. Both were fantastic, fondly remembered, and still a blast to drive in vintage vehicles. But the new engines are better in every measurable way.

 

[hattaresguy]

Buick shouldn't bring back any old badges.


The demographic they should be aiming for was about 1 year old or not born when the Grand National was in production.

Buick needs to get people to cross shop a coupe like this with a Lexus, BMW, or an Audi.

They need to get the 29 year old finance guy who works in NYC and makes $150k a year interested in a car like this.

It takes a long time to change perceptions, it really took Audi almost 20 years to claw up to an even playing field with the other Germans. The road from the 100 to the 2015 A6 was a very long one.

Cadillac is starting to do just this, but it takes time. Brands are not built overnight, and GM spent 40 years squandering any brand equity Cadillac and Buick had.

Mercedes can get $20k more for the S550 than anyone else can for their big cars...because the S class has been the world standard in luxury for 60 years...they spent 60 years building a brand and a car to be able to command that premium. Cadillac had that segment, they abandoned it after WW2.

Actually the Buick Avista has more in common with say a 1941 Buick Coupe, than anything after the war. Buick had this market they are now trying to get back.

 

[Andrew1972]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Paint it black, make the interior black and silver, turn up the boost on the twin turbo V-6, call it a Grand National, and you then have what Buick is really planning with that car.

Yes, there will be a version of this car named Grand National.

BC.


This. Bring back the turbo 3800 and shove it under the hood. No 4 banger please!


Powerful engine once you get over the lag. I had a chance to drive one and compared a modern turbo that can't touch a candle in real world drive ability.

 

[aquariuscsm]

But are these current 3.0 turbo engines as durable,long lasting,and reliable as the 3800's?

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
But are these current 3.0 turbo engines as durable,long lasting,and reliable as the 3800's?


Good question. Compared to a *turbo* 3800 from the 80s, probably more reliable and more long-lasting. There aren't many stories of 200k mile Grand Nationals, after all. Normally aspirated Regals, yes, GN's, not so much. So compared to a normally-aspirated garden-variety 3800, probably not- that was a pretty beefy iron-block, low-tech engine. But the new GM v6 engines are more efficient, lighter, more responsive, smoother, and probably good enough to out-live the rest of the car car if cared for.

Maybe I'm a bit jaded, but the 3800 probably looks as amazing as it does in part because of the counter-example of the Chevy V6 family (2.8, 3.1, 3.4) that was offered during many of the same years, in many of the same FWD GM vehicles, and didn't last nearly as long.

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Paint it black, make the interior black and silver, turn up the boost on the twin turbo V-6, call it a Grand National, and you then have what Buick is really planning with that car.

Yes, there will be a version of this car named Grand National.

BC.


This. Bring back the turbo 3800 and shove it under the hood. No 4 banger please!


There's most likely going to be sever engine options in this vehicle.

A base engine with a turbo I-4, probably the 2.0.
An upgraded N/A V-6.

And finally, I expect Buick to dust of the Grand National nameplate, and put it on the version with the 400+ hp TT V-6.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Avista name gets the 400hp version, and they dust off the GN name for something with the boost dialed up above the ATS-V's 464hp rating.

Of course, Chevy would cry foul, again, if the Buick GN is, once more, shredding the comparable V-8 equipped Camaro and base Corvette down the 1/4 mile marks.

BC.

 

[HM12460]

Very, very hot! Well done to our friends at Buick. The Grand National name plate would go well with this hot rod! I hope Buick builds it, and I'd love to see one in my garage.

 

[spasm3]

I've been saying for years that buick has been missing out by only making bodies that appeal to 70 year olds playing golf and going to the 5:00 buffet.

This car looks great. I would like to see it with turbo 6 power true to its heritage if you call it a grand national.
First buick that has decent looks since the late 80's .

Please just don't build it in china, and i might be interested, even if its union built i might want it.

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Maybe I'm a bit jaded, but the 3800 probably looks as amazing as it does in part because of the counter-example of the Chevy V6 family (2.8, 3.1, 3.4) that was offered during many of the same years, in many of the same FWD GM vehicles, and didn't last nearly as long.



The other reason that GM ditched the 3800 and its derivatives was packaging. The 3800 was a 90* V6 while the Chevy V6's were all 60* V6's. It's a lot easier to design a vehicle around a narrower engine than a wider engine. The 3800 also had a fairly unique sound that wasn't easily dealt with. And the stigma against updating an "old-school" pushrod V6.

Too bad that GM didn't stick with the 3800 despite everything. A Series IV 3800 with VVT and DI would likely be pushing well over 300 hp. And a modern turbo 3800 would likely be well north of 400 hp. Considering that Series II and III supercharged 3800's (L67 and L32) were sandbagged on power numbers from the factory, responded very well to modification, and stayed reliable under higher than factory boost since they were fairly over-built, a further development and switch to turbocharging would have likely given a powerful, reliable engine. Oh well.

Back on topic...

 

[DoubleWasp]

2 Good reasons the 3.8 dropped off of the map:

1. A 60 degree V6 is inherently smoother than a 90 degree V6.

2. The auto rags won't stop ripping on an old pushrod engine in the passenger car category.

GM kept that one going long after even it wanted to. Investor and customer complaints about its impending doom in 1999 kept it going until 2008.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
1. A 60 degree V6 is inherently smoother than a 90 degree V6.
2. The auto rags won't stop ripping on an old pushrod engine in the passenger car category.


You got it. As a pickup truck engine, the 3800 would be fantastic right now, with DI and VVT, maybe add Displacement On Demand DOD, higher compression of course too. Torquey, cube-packaging (remember heads don't take up a coliseum like the GM 3.6L V6 does). Shorter timing chains in the old pushrod are a plus too, for durability and more baritone acoustics. Add the usual supercharging for more low-end grunt for the SUV/PU crowd!

Buick should make a hot-rod hybrid powertrain for Avista to differentiate it further from the Camaro though and bring it forward into stricter CAFE MPG targets. More tech sophisticated for the Buick upscale buyer.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
2 Good reasons the 3.8 dropped off of the map:

1. A 60 degree V6 is inherently smoother than a 90 degree V6.

2. The auto rags won't stop ripping on an old pushrod engine in the passenger car category.

GM kept that one going long after even it wanted to. Investor and customer complaints about its impending doom in 1999 kept it going until 2008.


I'm not saying it has to be a 3.8 turbo or even a pushrod motor. I just think it would be cool to bring back the Grand National badge and use a newly designed turbo v-6 in it.

 

[supton]

How much does a single cam give up in regards to VVT versus double camshaft? With a single aren't you stuck moving both intake and exhaust by the same amount?

Or do DOHC VVT setups just move both cams? I thought there was a degree of freedom with dual cams (let's ignore in-block vs OHC for a moment) in regards to tailoring valve timing.

I do know the GM motors seem to have nice flat torque curves, at least the prior 5.3 did, so being stuck with but one cam cannot be that bad.