I will never understand oil....

[Pete591]

-A lot of European (tight tolerance) engines....0W-40 and some need "mega spec'd oils". From VW's to Audi's...to Porsche's to Ferrari's....MB and BMW. What do we use in the States..."chopped liver?"

Honda...Ford...Acura...Nissan...Lexus...Toyata...etc...5W-20

Many GM cars 5w30...


My real question is...man this is a huge difference in thinking and focus in design and rational....why?


I am not doubting a 5W-20...or a 0W-40...I go with manufacturer recommendations...but use a synthetic oil and follow the oil computer...which is usually about 7,500 miles.

Personally I think all this is insanity...

 

[ahoier]

Yea, it is kind of crazy....but I read previously on here, it's something the way the cars are driver "over there" too- with the Autobahn and all, the vehicles are driven a lot harder in general than those here in the states.....

Or so that's what some want us to believe

It is kinda odd to have "euro spec" oil for a year/make/model of vehicle, BUT, when they ship it over the pond to us, they up it to 5W.....? Kinda strange

Are they "colder" than us or something, thus the need for the thinner oil over there? I'd think the engines would be spec'd the same - so no issue of "clearances" between say a euro model and a us model of the same vehicle...?

 

[rclint]

Tolerance does not really have anything to do with it, clearances the distance between parts may have however clearances have not really changed much in the last 50 years or so, and may have become looser if anything. Tolerances have advanced leaps and bounds from years ago by the advent of CNC and in general computer controlled machinery. Tolerance is the limits set by the designers of the engines etc example a round part is called out to be 1" in diameter with a plus or minus (+/-) +.10 -.10. Now in years past it may have been +/- .15 which they would have held to around a .12 to keep on the safe side, however with todays CNC (using CNC as a general term) tolerances they would call out a +/- .10 tolerance and easily obtain a +/- .05. It takes me a long time to explain this, however I feel it's important for everyone to understand as tolerance is a word that is taken advantage of by manufactures, mechanics, you name it.

I'm just as lost as you on the different viscosity of oils between the US and other countries. Maybe Buster or some of the other oil people could help us out here, but I doubt the clearances in a motor would be in the least bit effected by a viscosity change of 20 to 40 while the engine is warm. It's the cold startup, and our speed limit which seems like to me deem the US a 5w-20 kind of place.

I also agree with you I follow the OEM, and I have never had any problem running 5w-20, however I'm ready for 0w-20 nowheck maybe 0w-10 if them API people will get on with the SM ball ( haha)

 

[rjacket]

It is confusing. I looked up my Lexus in the UK and it seems they specify 15w40 compared to 5w30.

In Europe the temperatures do vary from country to country, so these are some of the potential differences

1) UK is generally mild, except in Scotland it can get quite cold. But they basically don't have US northerly states / Canada type temps there. So coldest it will get there is say 20f and quite rarely. In summer you will never see 100f, so the 40 is lost on me.

However, it is a compact place and most people will end up driving quite short distances at moderate speeds and end up doing a lot of start stop driving. So maybe the idea is to protect the engine from high temps

2) Germany, being in central Europe, can get cold but not often as cold as the northerly US states. Generally the engines are smaller there and my experience is people run them at higher revs. The autobahn also means a lot of people push their cars hard. So 10w-40 seems to make sense there

France is going to be a milder temp and Spain and Italy, being more southerly can get hotter but again not necessarily Arizona hot.

The other big difference between US & Europe is the octane of gas, in Europe it is generally higher. I presume that means a more powerful combustion and perhaps more protection is required?

So maybe overall there is a higher likelihood of higher engine temperatures in Europe due to more stop and go driving, smaller engines, sustained autobahn driving in Germany, and higher octane fuel.

 

[Johnny]

Oh don't worry, someday they will catch up to us.

 

[badnews]

Originally Posted By: ahoier
Yea, it is kind of crazy....but I read previously on here, it's something the way the cars are driver "over there" too- with the Autobahn and all, the vehicles are driven a lot harder in general than those here in the states.....



That is the word from oil companies and it is nuts.

It is they are better informed on oils. The API spec's are pathetic today .

A 4x4 driving the MOAB at a crawl in 100 degree heat is way hard on an engine, not to mention the famous rush hour traffic almost everywhere.

In fact without the air flow I'd wager it is rougher on an engine than any autobahn

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: ahoier
Yea, it is kind of crazy....but I read previously on here, it's something the way the cars are driver "over there" too- with the Autobahn and all, the vehicles are driven a lot harder in general than those here in the states.....

Or so that's what some want us to believe

The main thing is that many just look at it in that one dimensional view. It's not so much a visc spec. It's a "desired outcomes" spec that ends up having 40 grades being the most sensible choice at the state of the art of blending/formulating.

It's not like some guy has his finger up his nose and says, "Duh ..throw in a 40 weight because we're generating some image of superiority that the world has come to expect from us. We could use other stuff, but then how would we have our distinction above the mundanes?".

Start with a chassis and engine design and work backwards ..assign all of your performance and durability criteria ...hand it to a formulator and see what they come up with to make it work. Between the two of you, you'll come up with the "most/best" outcome.


This is opposed to designing an engine/chassis and then stating "how long can we run this on 5w30 or 5w-20 in off the shelf/OTR oils under the current API designation".

 

[BobFout]

Most of the Euro oils you see are dual gas/diesel oils. There are very few diesel oils less than 40 wt. Throw in the mix they are designed for high-speed (whether it gets driven that way or not).

 

[Energyone]

In the Middle east and to be more specific in the Arabian Gulf German cars generally use 0w40 5w40 or 10w30 and rarely 5w30. All Toyota/ Lexus engines including the 5.7L 3ur-fe are certified for 20w50 15w40 10w30 and only in winter (below 60F)5w30. Toyota/Lexus dealer use a 20w50 toyota oil that has been used for decades and a synthetic 5w40 that was introduced 3years ago on all cars with no issues at all.

 

[Pete591]

My 2010 Honda V-6 says...5W-20 conventional or synthetic and go by the oil changer algorithm.

The Honda high mileage site...has cars ranging from 120,000-350,000 miles and still ticking.

Seems like many use a 5w30 ( several on Castrol Edge ) vs. a 5W-20.

hmmmmmmm

 

[Pete591]

Since the same manufacturer's use different oil weights in the same vehicles...without rational.. as the decisive force...I am going back a step into time...but not backwards.

Porsche'/Audi/Benz/BMW/Ferrari/Lamborghini....they are 5W-40 or 0W-40 Synthetic Oil users. No matter where their customer happens to live.

I AM STICKING MY NECK OUT...EVERY CAR BUILT IN THE LAST 5 YEARS CAN RUN ON A 0W-40 synthetic or GC 0W-30. IF NO OTHER OIL VISCOSITIES IN THE WORLD EXISTED THERE WOULD BE ZERO CONCERNS AND PROBABLY A LOT MORE HAPPIER ENGINES OUT THERE.

 

[Whimsey]

Originally Posted By: Pete591
Since the same manufacturer's use different oil weights in the same vehicles...without rational.. as the decisive force...I am going back a step into time...but not backwards.

Porsche'/Audi/Benz/BMW/Ferrari/Lamborghini....they are 5W-40 or 0W-40 Synthetic Oil users. No matter where their customer happens to live.

I AM STICKING MY NECK OUT...EVERY CAR BUILT IN THE LAST 5 YEARS CAN RUN ON A 0W-40 synthetic or GC 0W-30. IF NO OTHER OIL VISCOSITIES IN THE WORLD EXISTED THERE WOULD BE ZERO CONCERNS AND PROBABLY A LOT MORE HAPPIER ENGINES OUT THERE.



Yes you can use the oils listed above but they are not necessarily the best oils to use. The thinner weight oils seem to produce excellent wear in engines specked for them. And you get better MPG and seat of the pants feel with them.

I used Castrol 5W50 in the winter and summer and it was horrid in my German design Zetec engine. I went back to 5W30 oil and all was good again.

Whimsey

 

[sbergman27]

Quote:
Yea, it is kind of crazy....but I read previously on here, it's something the way the cars are driver "over there" too- with the Autobahn and all,

Right. Because the average European gets up in the morning, brushes his teeth, takes a shower, puts on his clothes, and then drives at 200km/h for 100km to work on "The Autobahn" every day.

I wonder if that's true? I wonder what percentage of VW's in California ever see "The Autobahn"? I wonder what percentage of BMW's are even in Europe?

 

[Y_K]

..to S-Bahn, sometimes on a bicycle.

 

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted By: Y_K
..to S-Bahn, sometimes on a bicycle.

I'm imagining Steve Austin and Jaime Sommers on a Bicycle Built For Two. I'm sure they'd surprise the Ferrari drivers, passing on the shoulder like that. ;-)

 

[Pete591]

Ya know...

5W-20 syn for winter...light summer temps

5w30 syn for summer...medium heat/use...

5W-40 syn for extreme heat and use...

...not an unreasonable way for an owner to decide...what's best for them. Using one "grade" really has never been the way we have thought..it has been a range based on temps and driving
conditions.

I think we need to realize that we know more than we think we know...

 

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted By: Pete591
5W-20 syn for winter...light summer temps
5w30 syn for summer...medium heat/use...
5W-40 syn for extreme heat and use...

Why recommend 5W across the board, varying only the operating temperature viscosity? The coolant thermostat ensures that operating temperature doesn't vary that much. I'd be more inclined to set the operating temperature based upon engine requirements, and vary the cold temperature viscosity based upon ambient conditions. Though I would still tend to favor 0W oils since no oil is too thin, or even thin enough, at the starting, ambient, temperature.

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: sbergman27
...since no oil is too thin, or even thin enough, at the starting, ambient, temperature.

Pretty much.

I think we over think.
The way I look at it, is that if the oil film isn't broken, there is little to no wear, regardless of weight.
In boundary layer lubrication, as long as the additive film isn't broken, ditto.

Am I crazy?

 

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
Pretty much. I think we over think.

I know for sure that we overthink, in some ways, here. And underthink in others.

Quote:
The way I look at it, is that if the oil film isn't broken, there is little to no wear, regardless of weight. In boundary layer lubrication, as long as the additive film isn't broken, ditto.

To be clear, my comment was specifically referring to all available oils being more viscous than desirable when you go out to start the car on those cold 0F mornings, or even those warm 100F afternoons, getting off work. Eneos 0W20 has an incredible VI, and yet would still rate as an API 250 viscosity (100C) oil if measured at 40C. Even in warm weather one should be more concerned with pumping that (relatively) thick goo than with its film strength.

But as I see it, you are quite insightful in pointing out that for metal to metal contact to take place, the metal has to be able to come in contact with the metal. Which involves it squeezing out both the petroleum and the the additive components of the lubricant.

I think we concern ourselves too much with how the oil feels between our fingers, to the exclusion of how it performs under higher pressure conditions.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Why recommend 5W across the board, varying only the operating temperature viscosity?



You keep saying this. The rest of your rhetoric tends to belie it ..but this is the 2nd time I've noted that the ONLY thing you see different between a 5w-20 and (let's go WILD) and a (proposed) 5w-60 is operating visc. That's just not right.

There's a MASSIVE GAP between where cold properties are valid and where "operating visc" is attained. Most engines spend there entire lives in warm up and very few are at "operating visc" to a higher percentage of time than than they are warming up to "operating visc".

You need to qualify that a bit more.