I Have Changed my Mind on Filters

[Al]

Perhaps like many of you I once thought filtering didn't do much or anything to increase longevity of an engine.
Thinking about it more....eventually most cars use more oil with age. My Subaru with 195K miles on it now gets a diet of 40wt oil. Consumption is around 4000 miles per quart with it. Compared to 2000 miles. In high speed on 30 wt oil it used a quart every 300 miles. That no longer occurs.

I thought like that at one time. Fram Ultra is one of probably a few filters I know of that clearly states you filter 20 microns@ 99%.

and
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30697/choose-oil-filter

"Typical automotive oil filters remove particles 40 microns and larger."

"AC Delco Division of General Motors tested diesel engines and found an eight-fold improvement in wear rates and engine life with lower lube oil contaminant levels. In a related study on both diesel and automotive engines, General Motors reported that "compared to a 40-micron filter, engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30-micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15-micron filtration".

Most of engine damage (by a wide margin) occurs with particles below 10 microns. A 99% at 20 microns would remove the vast number of particles in the 10 micron range. A 40 micron filter would not. I don't ever intend to keep another vehicle beyond 80 K miles but ultimately these vehicles will go to grandchildren. So I am all in on this type of filter. Seems like a no brainer??

 

[gathermewool]

Wear where?

 

[Saul]

Semantics.Most engines filtered with cheap chinese filters still outlast the car.

 

[D.K.]

Originally Posted by Saul
Semantics.Most engines filtered with cheap chinese filters still outlast the car.



I sorta figured that out a long time ago. Most of you would stroke out if you knew how long I run motorcraft Fl400s filters on my 2008 Chrysler Town and Country 3.8L van. That van has 173,500 miles, the last 100000 miles it has had exactly 5 filters and 10 oil changes with the cheapest group 3 oil usually Rural King. It uses about 1 qt of oil every 4500 miles and still gets 20+ mpg.

 

[Job]

I already use Delco filters because that's what the dealer put on. So they must meet the high standards of their own research. That single pass test is not the test on current boxes. It depends what the particles are made of if they are harmful. Your engine may need a rebuild. Changing the oil more often may have helped. 200k is still some miles in a cold winter area.

 

[Al]

Well sure the engine will outlast the car but most engines I know of double their oil use in 100 to 150K miles over new.. And for me.,I want grandkids to have a great car.

Also I'll wager that an extra 4 buck/filter will save much more than that in gas (and oil). When I can afford to buy the best I do and 4 bucks more for a filter..lol..that 1 1/2 gallon of gasoline or less than a quart of decent oil, or a cup of latte.

One would think folks on an oil board the show so much angst over oil when oil analysis show there is little difference in oil performance...are happy with a filter that is not even on the same mountain as a 20 micron filter.

Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I already use Delco filters because that's what the dealer put on. So they must meet the high standards of their own research.

You mean their marketing depart which only needs the engine to last 60K miles....good one..

 

[PiperOne]

You do realize how old that study is right? This testing was done on 2 stroke diesels of the 1970's using 1970's oils and 1970's filtration....we had thinks like sock filters and Lubrifiner bypass cans the size of a water cooler jug back then...just saying it may not be all that relevant with todays filter tech (did a 40 micron filter in the 70's do it at 99%...hardly) and oils and bearings.....not much to get worked up over now. Go look at my 400,000 miles of Duramax oil samples post...with a plain old 40 micron cellulose Fleetguard filter the engine is hardly wearing at all.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by Al
Well sure the engine will outlast the car but most engines I know of double their oil use in 100 to 150K miles over new.. And for me.,I want grandkids to have a great car.

Also I'll wager that an extra 4 buck/filter will save much more than that in gas (and oil). When I can afford to buy the best I do and 4 bucks more for a filter..lol..that 1 1/2 gallon of gasoline or less than a quart of decent oil, or a cup of latte.

One would think folks on an oil board the show so much angst over oil when oil analysis show there is little difference in oil performance...are happy with a filter that is not even on the same mountain as a 20 micron filter.

Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I already use Delco filters because that's what the dealer put on. So they must meet the high standards of their own research.

You mean their marketing depart which only needs the engine to last 60K miles....good one..

Your funny because the oil filter is an rock catcher. So you get an extra 10K miles in an engine with a 20 micron filter over one with without a filter and the OCI is done on time.

 

[Job]

Originally Posted by Al
Well sure the engine will outlast the car but most engines I know of double their oil use in 100 to 150K miles over new.. And for me.,I want grandkids to have a great car.

Also I'll wager that an extra 4 buck/filter will save much more than that in gas (and oil). When I can afford to buy the best I do and 4 bucks more for a filter..lol..that 1 1/2 gallon of gasoline or less than a quart of decent oil, or a cup of latte.

One would think folks on an oil board the show so much angst over oil when oil analysis show there is little difference in oil performance...are happy with a filter that is not even on the same mountain as a 20 micron filter.

Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I already use Delco filters because that's what the dealer put on. So they must meet the high standards of their own research.

You mean their marketing depart which only needs the engine to last 60K miles....good one..

You are the one who posted a GM filter study. So it stands to reason they are very concerned about filtration. Did you notice the GM test is single pass and you are comparing it to another test? Marketing doesn't spec oil filters.

 

[Linctex]

Better filtration is always a good thing for an engine.

Will adding a better filter make YOUR car last longer? Who really knows??

I added a bypass filter to my F150 truck - it doesn't hurt, but maybe doesn't help, either....

I do have 8,000 miles on the Mobil 1 AP 5W-20 that is in it, and it hasn't burned a drop yet.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Linctex
Better filtration is always a good thing for an engine.


+1 ... every oil cleanliness vs. engine wear study says there is less wear with cleaner oil. And they also show more efficient filters result in cleaner oil. No surprises.

I'm still waiting for all the technical study links that prove that's not true.

 

[gfh77665]

Are there any 40 micron filters out there? I thought most were 20 microns?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by gfh77665
Are there any 40 micron filters out there? I thought most were 20 microns?


Purolator Boss is 99% at 40μ. Filters rated 50% at 20μ will probably be close to 99% at 40μ.

 

[Pinoak]

Originally Posted by gfh77665
Are there any 40 micron filters out there? I thought most were 20 microns?

There are plenty. Any filter that can filter out 40 micron particles could be claimed to be a 40 micron filter.
Same with any micron size. A 40 micron absolute filter can filter out 30, 20, 10, 5 micron particles and could be claimed to be a 5,10 or 20 or 30 micron filter.
Alot of filters you see claim 99% filtering ability. If they bother to provide a micron # most will list whatever micron size it can catch absolute. It is indeed just about marketing. 99% sounds real good and that's as far as most patrons will look.
It truly doesn't make alot of difference what the rating really is for 99.9% of cases. If you wanna try and keep your vehicle on the road for a million miles I suppose it might start to matter. Even so I wonder what Irv Gordon used for filters on his 3 million+ mile Volvo?
Or the owner of the 700k mile and counting Toyota tundra that had 1 major issues up to that point that was not related to the engine?
Erv. Gordon preached using only oe parts. I bet he thought the same as far as filters go. So he probably used oe filters. By the way, he always used Castrol Gtx for oil so not even synthetic oil.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Yep, an efficiency rating percent without a corresponding particle size is totally useless.

Also, just because an engine still "runs good" doesn't mean it's not worn. I've seen engines that would be considered out of factory weat specs still run pretty good.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Pinoak
Originally Posted by gfh77665
Are there any 40 micron filters out there? I thought most were 20 microns?

There are plenty. Any filter that can filter out 40 micron particles could be claimed to be a 40 micron filter.
Same with any micron size. A 40 micron absolute filter can filter out 30, 20, 10, 5 micron particles and could be claimed to be a 5,10 or 20 or 30 micron filter.
Alot of filters you see claim 99% filtering ability. If they bother to provide a micron # most will list whatever micron size it can catch absolute. It is indeed just about marketing. 99% sounds real good and that's as far as most patrons will look.
It truly doesn't make alot of difference what the rating really is for 99.9% of cases. If you wanna try and keep your vehicle on the road for a million miles I suppose it might start to matter. Even so I wonder what Irv Gordon used for filters on his 3 million+ mile Volvo?
Or the owner of the 700k mile and counting Toyota tundra that had 1 major issues up to that point that was not related to the engine?
Erv. Gordon preached using only oe parts. I bet he thought the same as far as filters go. So he probably used oe filters. By the way, he always used Castrol Gtx for oil so not even synthetic oil.



Mr. Gordon's engine was rebuilt once and then replaced eventually.

Quote
The Guinness record was broken at 1.69 million miles, almost exactly a million miles after Gordon had the engine rebuilt

Quote
The P1800 did receive a new engine in 2009, as the original one was losing compression

 

[oil_film_movies]

I hate it when those Machinery Lubrication articles on the web have NO DATE on them. The article references old filter tests which aren't used these days. Still, a good article the OP cited there.

Just get the most junk out of your oil with the best filter you can find (usually Fram Ultra wins).

 

[Saul]

Originally Posted by Al
Well sure the engine will outlast the car but most engines I know of double their oil use in 100 to 150K miles over new.. And for me.,I want grandkids to have a great car.

Also I'll wager that an extra 4 buck/filter will save much more than that in gas (and oil). When I can afford to buy the best I do and 4 bucks more for a filter..lol..that 1 1/2 gallon of gasoline or less than a quart of decent oil, or a cup of latte.

One would think folks on an oil board the show so much angst over oil when oil analysis show there is little difference in oil performance...are happy with a filter that is not even on the same mountain as a 20 micron filter.

Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I already use Delco filters because that's what the dealer put on. So they must meet the high standards of their own research.

You mean their marketing depart which only needs the engine to last 60K miles....good one..

Cummins Fleetguards are rate at 30 micron and HD diesel engines still go half mil or 1 mil miles...

Aircraft sometimes use champion filters with no efficiency labeled or other brands....manual gives an hours rebuild for engine no matter what filter was used. What does that say for your theory?

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted by Saul
Originally Posted by Al
Well sure the engine will outlast the car but most engines I know of double their oil use in 100 to 150K miles over new.. And for me.,I want grandkids to have a great car.

Also I'll wager that an extra 4 buck/filter will save much more than that in gas (and oil). When I can afford to buy the best I do and 4 bucks more for a filter..lol..that 1 1/2 gallon of gasoline or less than a quart of decent oil, or a cup of latte.

One would think folks on an oil board the show so much angst over oil when oil analysis show there is little difference in oil performance...are happy with a filter that is not even on the same mountain as a 20 micron filter.

Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I already use Delco filters because that's what the dealer put on. So they must meet the high standards of their own research.

You mean their marketing depart which only needs the engine to last 60K miles....good one..

Cummins Fleetguards are rate at 30 micron and HD diesel engines still go half mil or 1 mil miles...

Aircraft sometimes use champion filters with no efficiency labeled or other brands....manual gives an hours rebuild for engine no matter what filter was used. What does that say for your theory?


There's no shoulder to pull over to when you're flying...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Saul

Cummins Fleetguards are rate at 30 micron and HD diesel engines still go half mil or 1 mil miles...


Cummins also developed the Stratapore (and now NanoNet) media to provide superior filtration.
http://www.ilk-end.com/SharedFiles/Download.aspx?pageid=109&fileid=20&mid=1068

Originally Posted by Cummins
Cellulose media is older technology used when high efficiency or long term filtration is not the main concern. Due to volumes used, cellulose is the most inexpensive media with which to build a filter. Cellulose fibers are made of wood pulp and are irregular in shape. Cellulose fibers are larger than synthetics fibers. These two factors cause high
restriction in cellulose media.


Originally Posted by Cummins
Fiberglass media was the first high efficiency/low restriction media used in filtration. Cummins Filtration was the first company to develop a glass fiber media for use in an engine lube system. This product was named "Microglass". Microglass media has a much greater capacity and efficiency than a These small round fibers allow for more pores per unit area. Since these pores are smaller than a comparable cellulose, glass medias have much better efficiency. Since there are many more pores, glass medias have a much greater capacity than a comparable cellulose, yet has a much lower restriction. The lower restriction is because the fibers are smaller in diameter than cellulose and are round in cross section.


Originally Posted by Cummins
The latest generation of synthetic media is StrataPore. Made using a meltblown process, polymers are used as a base material rather than glass. StrataPore is a patented media developed by Cummins Filtration. StrataPore has a micron range from 2-25 microns absolute depending on application. StrataPore, like glass media, has straight, round fibers that allow for high efficiency and high capacity while maintaining low restriction. Unlike glass, these fibers are continuous from one end of the filter to the other.


And then also per Cummins:
https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/s...0LF14000NN%20Data%20Sheet%20-%20LR_0.pdf
Originally Posted by Cummins

LF14000NN Featuring NanoNet® Media

Benefits
â– Reduced maintenance costs
â– Lower operating costs
â– Longer component life
â– Fine particle removal extends engine life
â– Captures and retains contaminants that can damage the engine
â– Allows high efficiency throughout the life of the filter
â– Improves cold-flow ability: the oil flow under increased restrictions due to cold temperatures, high soot and sludge levels, oil oxidation, and premature plugging

The LF14000NN is now standard on all new Cummins ISX engines and should be used to service all ISX engines. LF14000NN is suitable wherever LF9080 was previously used.




Originally Posted by Saul
Aircraft sometimes use champion filters with no efficiency labeled or other brands....manual gives an hours rebuild for engine no matter what filter was used. What does that say for your theory?


It says nothing because the frequent rebuilt interval on aircraft engines negates any need to pursue filtration technology that might further extend the lifespan of that equipment.