I Hate ABS
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Originally Posted By: ClarkB
Wait, isn't the design of ABS to allow the brakes to slow you down and allow you to steer at the same time? Wouldn't you rather steer around an accident than skid? And if you're in slippery conditions, how are you going to control the skid? In slippery conditions, you have no choice but going what direction your vehicle is pointed.
Clark
It's been shown many times that ABS can be a huge hindrance on dirt/gravel, prematurely releasing the brakes when locking up and ploughing through to the hard underlayer is preferential, although modern iterations are far superior to the original versions it also really does depend on the 'tuning' of the system.
forgot to add that I think ABS should be compulsory on all vehicles, with a switch to disable for off roaders.
Wait, isn't the design of ABS to allow the brakes to slow you down and allow you to steer at the same time? Wouldn't you rather steer around an accident than skid? And if you're in slippery conditions, how are you going to control the skid? In slippery conditions, you have no choice but going what direction your vehicle is pointed.
Clark
It's been shown many times that ABS can be a huge hindrance on dirt/gravel, prematurely releasing the brakes when locking up and ploughing through to the hard underlayer is preferential, although modern iterations are far superior to the original versions it also really does depend on the 'tuning' of the system.
forgot to add that I think ABS should be compulsory on all vehicles, with a switch to disable for off roaders.
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Not sure how they're makin' Audi's now but they used to come with an "ABS off" switch.
Idea was that during gravel/fluffy snow, you could turn ABS off and wedges of gravel/snow would build up in front of each tire thus slowing you down in a shorter distance.
Idea was that during gravel/fluffy snow, you could turn ABS off and wedges of gravel/snow would build up in front of each tire thus slowing you down in a shorter distance.
I like what Kestas brings up in that cars that have ABS are more likely to be rear-ended in a panic stop situation.
This is because you are not alerted to a panic stop with a car that has ABS. This happened to me when the car in front that had ABS and was trying to avoid hitting a jay walker that darted out at the last minute.
And my car didn't have ABS. I was already slowing down, but it was too late. I didn't have time to pump the pedal, and I skidded into the car in front at probably about 20mph. No damage was done to either vehicle.
Witnesses say that I tried to stop as they heard all four tires locking up on dry pavement.
Needless to say, I try not to tailgate, even though the car I have now does have ABS.
This is because you are not alerted to a panic stop with a car that has ABS. This happened to me when the car in front that had ABS and was trying to avoid hitting a jay walker that darted out at the last minute.
And my car didn't have ABS. I was already slowing down, but it was too late. I didn't have time to pump the pedal, and I skidded into the car in front at probably about 20mph. No damage was done to either vehicle.
Witnesses say that I tried to stop as they heard all four tires locking up on dry pavement.
Needless to say, I try not to tailgate, even though the car I have now does have ABS.
I hate anything electronic on an automobile 'cause the only times in my life I have ever been stranded in a motor vheicle is by an electronic [ computer controlled ] device failing.
If all you "driving Pro's"
Knew how much testing by ITT Teves went into the first generation ABS & traction control systems you wouldn't believe it. ABS prevents most types of skidding when the tire loses traction and attempts to re-establish the contact between the tire and road surface. This re-establishes control of the vehicle. It was never designed for simply shorter braking distance. They could accomplish that by larger disc brake rotors & better pads.
Originally Posted By: PT1
They could accomplish that by larger disc brake rotors & better pads.
They could accomplish that by larger disc brake rotors & better pads.
If it was really superior to a skilled driver, would it not be on F1 cars.
Most people who drive are not SKILLED drivers. They may be safe,never had an accident etc but NOT SKILLED.
About 4cents worth
Most people who drive are not SKILLED drivers. They may be safe,never had an accident etc but NOT SKILLED.
About 4cents worth
My cousin drives a tow-truck for a living and we have an area near Toronto called "Markham" and it's primarily Chinese. He says "I can sit at any intersection in Markham and just know I'm going to have a good day"
I know what you mean when you say that most people who drive are not "SKILLED"!
Originally Posted By: Smoky14
If it was really superior to a skilled driver, would it not be on F1 cars.
F1 have a lot of stringent rules and regulations. It changes all the time. ABS might be allowed one year, and banned the next.
If it was really superior to a skilled driver, would it not be on F1 cars.
F1 have a lot of stringent rules and regulations. It changes all the time. ABS might be allowed one year, and banned the next.
I will have to check how much the discount is, they usually ask if you have an anti-theft device, ABS, air bags, etc. I did some searching and one said up to 25% for airbags, 25% for anti-theft, 5% for ABS. Maybe that reflects the questionable results for ABS?, I just remember my agent asking what safety equipment is on the car....
Originally Posted By: rpn453
ABS is not ideal for snow or dirt. There should be an off/on switch.
+1
ABS is not ideal for snow or dirt. There should be an off/on switch.
+1
No offense meant, but most of these examples of when ABS didn't "work" are really examples of driving too fast for conditions and/or tailgating.
The reason ABS is good is that a locked up tire doesn't grip as well as a tire that's almost locked up. And you have no control. If an ABS system causes longer stop times, there are only a few reasons why:
1- System is faulty.
2- Driver is over-braking.
3- Driver didn't anticipate the stop correctly.
Because ABS ONLY kicks in once a wheel is locked...
The reason ABS is good is that a locked up tire doesn't grip as well as a tire that's almost locked up. And you have no control. If an ABS system causes longer stop times, there are only a few reasons why:
1- System is faulty.
2- Driver is over-braking.
3- Driver didn't anticipate the stop correctly.
Because ABS ONLY kicks in once a wheel is locked...
Originally Posted By: swalve
No offense meant, but most of these examples of when ABS didn't "work" are really examples of driving too fast for conditions and/or tailgating.
Agreed, but why should I have something built into my car that is only going to make bad situations worse? Stuff happens, the car's systems should be designed to help or at least not make things worse.
No offense meant, but most of these examples of when ABS didn't "work" are really examples of driving too fast for conditions and/or tailgating.
Agreed, but why should I have something built into my car that is only going to make bad situations worse? Stuff happens, the car's systems should be designed to help or at least not make things worse.
"Agreed, but why should I have something built into my car that is only going to make bad situations worse? Stuff happens, the car's systems should be designed to help or at least not make things worse. "
It's a tradeoff between the probability of and severity of failures. Insurance companies are a good place to look to determine overall benefit, they're betting with money, and they give discounts for ABS.
It's a tradeoff between the probability of and severity of failures. Insurance companies are a good place to look to determine overall benefit, they're betting with money, and they give discounts for ABS.
It's interesting that points such as threshold braking etc. are brought up in this discussion. In recent years, we have seen car manufacturer's supplement the ABS with "electronic brake assist", which magnifies the brake force applied when it senses an emergency stop. Apparently, studies have shown that in general, people do not brake hard enough in an emergency to make full use of the ABS's potential.
Originally Posted By: chrome
It's interesting that points such as threshold braking etc. are brought up in this discussion. In recent years, we have seen car manufacturer's supplement the ABS with "electronic brake assist", which magnifies the brake force applied when it senses an emergency stop. Apparently, studies have shown that in general, people do not brake hard enough in an emergency to make full use of the ABS's potential.
The ABS systems with the electronic brake assist seem to work well. I was distracted for a moment, and the car in front slams on the brakes, we're doing about 50 or so. I mashed the brake pedal, and man, I thought I was going to go through the windsheild, the stop was so abrubt and short. Lucky there wasn't a clapped out mini-van with bald tires behind me!
There are definitely some very good and some not so great systems out there. GM's cr@ppy ABS from the '80's and '90's come to mind.
It's interesting that points such as threshold braking etc. are brought up in this discussion. In recent years, we have seen car manufacturer's supplement the ABS with "electronic brake assist", which magnifies the brake force applied when it senses an emergency stop. Apparently, studies have shown that in general, people do not brake hard enough in an emergency to make full use of the ABS's potential.
The ABS systems with the electronic brake assist seem to work well. I was distracted for a moment, and the car in front slams on the brakes, we're doing about 50 or so. I mashed the brake pedal, and man, I thought I was going to go through the windsheild, the stop was so abrubt and short. Lucky there wasn't a clapped out mini-van with bald tires behind me!
There are definitely some very good and some not so great systems out there. GM's cr@ppy ABS from the '80's and '90's come to mind.
Originally Posted By: swalve
No offense meant, but most of these examples of when ABS didn't "work" are really examples of driving too fast for conditions and/or tailgating.
The reason ABS is good is that a locked up tire doesn't grip as well as a tire that's almost locked up. And you have no control. If an ABS system causes longer stop times, there are only a few reasons why:
1- System is faulty.
2- Driver is over-braking.
3- Driver didn't anticipate the stop correctly.
Because ABS ONLY kicks in once a wheel is locked...
most of the examples given are very low traction situations, eg. snow (which I have bugger all experience driving in) and gravel/dirt (lots of experience, as in virtually daily)
ABS is a life save as it allows steering and braking at the same time, not something the 'average' motorist can achieve, and having raced, not all race drivers either
ABS definitely has limitations on dirt unless well tuned.
It's been well reported in the motoring press here that locally produced vehicles tend to fare better than imported vehicles in ABS performance in gravel/dirt.
Some of the early Japanese systems, Mazda's comes to mind wouldn't allow emergency braking at all on gravel roads, they were too sensitive.
As for the need to brake heavily, live in my part of the world where animals tend to literally hop out in front of me several times a day and you appreciate good stoppers.
No offense meant, but most of these examples of when ABS didn't "work" are really examples of driving too fast for conditions and/or tailgating.
The reason ABS is good is that a locked up tire doesn't grip as well as a tire that's almost locked up. And you have no control. If an ABS system causes longer stop times, there are only a few reasons why:
1- System is faulty.
2- Driver is over-braking.
3- Driver didn't anticipate the stop correctly.
Because ABS ONLY kicks in once a wheel is locked...
most of the examples given are very low traction situations, eg. snow (which I have bugger all experience driving in) and gravel/dirt (lots of experience, as in virtually daily)
ABS is a life save as it allows steering and braking at the same time, not something the 'average' motorist can achieve, and having raced, not all race drivers either
ABS definitely has limitations on dirt unless well tuned.
It's been well reported in the motoring press here that locally produced vehicles tend to fare better than imported vehicles in ABS performance in gravel/dirt.
Some of the early Japanese systems, Mazda's comes to mind wouldn't allow emergency braking at all on gravel roads, they were too sensitive.
As for the need to brake heavily, live in my part of the world where animals tend to literally hop out in front of me several times a day and you appreciate good stoppers.
Originally Posted By: chrome
It's interesting that points such as threshold braking etc. are brought up in this discussion. In recent years, we have seen car manufacturer's supplement the ABS with "electronic brake assist", which magnifies the brake force applied when it senses an emergency stop. Apparently, studies have shown that in general, people do not brake hard enough in an emergency to make full use of the ABS's potential.
Yep, even heard reports of people backing off the pedal when it starts to pulse.
I think most drivers are very unaware of their cars braking ability as they rarely need to do an emergency stop.
It's interesting that points such as threshold braking etc. are brought up in this discussion. In recent years, we have seen car manufacturer's supplement the ABS with "electronic brake assist", which magnifies the brake force applied when it senses an emergency stop. Apparently, studies have shown that in general, people do not brake hard enough in an emergency to make full use of the ABS's potential.
Yep, even heard reports of people backing off the pedal when it starts to pulse.
I think most drivers are very unaware of their cars braking ability as they rarely need to do an emergency stop.
ha tdi-rick, come drive in NYC if you want to do emergency stops : ).
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