I'd like to add the fact as most here know that RL in my Outback became 'dirty' very quickly after an RX/Delvac 1 clean. D1 is a highly detergent fleet oil. RL was certainly doing something. And any oil that performs like RL 5W40 has done in Tyrolkids 1.8T is good enough for me.
I emailed Redline Tech. Department
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That would be difficult to do, Buster, but not impossible. I just can't see anyone doing it ...like a lot of comparison tests we'd like to see.
It's not really blind brand loyalty with me. I've tried just about every oil and have had loyalties I've shed in the past (Castrol & Valvoline are probably the ones I've turned around on the most) so I can't say it's that ... at least not for me. If I'm initially wrong about an oil, I admit it, jump on a more appropriate bandwagon and move on.
I have a hard time believing that the best base oils along with the heaviest barrier anti-wear add up to only a mediocre synthetic oil ... unless someone can really show me what's going on. We all know that lubrication in an internal combustion engine over many months is a very complicated and simple VOAs/UOAs tell us a lot but not nearly everything.
I don't just wonder about slightly elevated wear metals in Red Line, but I also wonder about some of the Castrol I've used in the past. Original formula looked clean for thousands of miles and then I switch brands and the next oil becomes filthy almost immediately ... and I couldn't believe there was something drastically wrong with the follow-up oil ... usually Mobil 1. What exactly was that other oil leaving behind and why? How does this affect UOAs?
My guess is, that oil possibly along with GTX, is low in detergents/dispersants. This approach should be great for anti-wear, at least at first, as it is more pure lubricant ... but in the long run engines tending towards sludging up may encounter problems.
And of course, with newer (more stable base oil) formulations, my anedotal experiences of several years ago may no longer apply.
---Bror Jace
It's not really blind brand loyalty with me. I've tried just about every oil and have had loyalties I've shed in the past (Castrol & Valvoline are probably the ones I've turned around on the most) so I can't say it's that ... at least not for me. If I'm initially wrong about an oil, I admit it, jump on a more appropriate bandwagon and move on.
I have a hard time believing that the best base oils along with the heaviest barrier anti-wear add up to only a mediocre synthetic oil ... unless someone can really show me what's going on. We all know that lubrication in an internal combustion engine over many months is a very complicated and simple VOAs/UOAs tell us a lot but not nearly everything.
I don't just wonder about slightly elevated wear metals in Red Line, but I also wonder about some of the Castrol I've used in the past. Original formula looked clean for thousands of miles and then I switch brands and the next oil becomes filthy almost immediately ... and I couldn't believe there was something drastically wrong with the follow-up oil ... usually Mobil 1. What exactly was that other oil leaving behind and why? How does this affect UOAs?
My guess is, that oil possibly along with GTX, is low in detergents/dispersants. This approach should be great for anti-wear, at least at first, as it is more pure lubricant ... but in the long run engines tending towards sludging up may encounter problems.
And of course, with newer (more stable base oil) formulations, my anedotal experiences of several years ago may no longer apply.
---Bror Jace
[/I thought that Daves customer service skills were sadly lacking. He definately missed out on a HUGE opertunity to set the record clear about his products. He could have used this message as a marketing tool. Were else could he find so many oil Zelots drooling for information?
QUOTE]
I think part of the problem with RL's anwser was your question. I think you talked to much about other oils, which can **** off a smaller company, and then they don't want to anwser your questions.
If you step back and read your question again it basiclly says; "These other oil companys are telling me what they have so you must too"
I'm sure this is not 100% of the problem.
How about on Oct 1, everybody on this list emails RL with the exact same basic question, and see how they like that. What is that, about 2500 emails in one day.
CRW
Why on earth would you expect a company to give out its specific formulations? I suspect some of the smaller ones could even go to some effort to mask the specifics.
Anybody ask Coca Cola for their formulations lately?
And does it really matter to anyone exactly what the makeup is, as long as the product does the job for which it is intended? Experience and oil analysis can help determine which is superior a whole lot better than reading a cookbook recipe.
Anybody ask Coca Cola for their formulations lately?
And does it really matter to anyone exactly what the makeup is, as long as the product does the job for which it is intended? Experience and oil analysis can help determine which is superior a whole lot better than reading a cookbook recipe.
Patman
Staff member
It's not like he was asking for them to give their exact "recipe" in order to build the oil though.
Schaeffer Oil is very forthcoming with the info on their oils, telling people exactly what percentage of PAO and group 2+ (or group 3) is in their blends.
Consumers are more informed nowadays, so companies need to be more honest with them. We might be a small group of oil nuts on here in comparison to the entire oil buying public, however there is a huge ripple effect on any info that is given out on here, as many of our members are also active members on other message boards too. For instance I'm a long time member on LS1.com and CamaroZ28.com, both of which have over 30,000 members apiece. So any oil info I give out on there gets out to quite a large number of people!
Schaeffer Oil is very forthcoming with the info on their oils, telling people exactly what percentage of PAO and group 2+ (or group 3) is in their blends.
Consumers are more informed nowadays, so companies need to be more honest with them. We might be a small group of oil nuts on here in comparison to the entire oil buying public, however there is a huge ripple effect on any info that is given out on here, as many of our members are also active members on other message boards too. For instance I'm a long time member on LS1.com and CamaroZ28.com, both of which have over 30,000 members apiece. So any oil info I give out on there gets out to quite a large number of people!
And think of all those people that your are giving bad information too by suggesting they run Redline in a LS1.
[ September 26, 2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Patman
Staff member
Actually I give them three choices. Amsoil, Redline or GC 0w30.quote:
Originally posted by buster:
And think of all those people that your are giving bad information too by suggesting they run Redline in a LS1.Jury is still out on this oil for anyone to be recommending in my opinion.
If more Schaeffer Oil batches came in at 12cst, I'd recommend that too, but more often than not it's closer to 10cst, a little too low for the LS1 unfortunately.
I still have faith in Redline, and when you get back your first UOA, I believe you'll be impressed with it.
I hope so. I still think the most convienient fix for those (which is most people) is to simply add a qt of 15W-50 to thicken the Mobil 1 up. In all honesty thought, M1 hasnt been that bad in LS1's but it could be better. We will have to wait for it to be A3 rated I guess. I think Amsoil ATM 10w-30 is the best choice for an LS1 if I had to pick one. S2k isn't cracked up to what it says it is. Race Proven? Ummm...no, sorry.
[ September 26, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Buster,
You can expect to see elevated lead and copper levels the first time you run Redline, even in a very clean, low mileage engine. This is not so much caused by cleaning up residual deposits as it is a plating reaction between the additive chemistry and these softer bearing materials. The condition will stabilize after 1-2 batches of Redline. I'd wait and test the second or third batch you run if you want to see representative results.
From what I've seen, Redline works very with the metallurgy used in Toyota and VW/Audi engines. It should also give you lower oil consumption than the Mobil 1 did ....
You can expect to see elevated lead and copper levels the first time you run Redline, even in a very clean, low mileage engine. This is not so much caused by cleaning up residual deposits as it is a plating reaction between the additive chemistry and these softer bearing materials. The condition will stabilize after 1-2 batches of Redline. I'd wait and test the second or third batch you run if you want to see representative results.
From what I've seen, Redline works very with the metallurgy used in Toyota and VW/Audi engines. It should also give you lower oil consumption than the Mobil 1 did ....
I think there is some merit to the suggestion that Redline may hold particles in suspension better than some other oils, and perhaps poly esters attract metal particles more than other oil types. This leads to some questions about how well a UOA report represents true wear in an engine. A good oil which has great suspension characteristics can show poorer UOA numbers, and an oil with poor suspension characteristics can show better UOA numbers.... hmmmmmm.....
In the racing world those guys take their engines apart on a regular basis, thus they really know what oil works and what oil doesnt by measuring wear directly. Free oil sponsorship kinda confuses things in the racing world but I think for the most part teams use oil which they believe works. If this is the case then it should speak well of Redline as it is widely used in the racing world and I dont think Redline gives out free oil to a whole bunch of teams.
In the racing world those guys take their engines apart on a regular basis, thus they really know what oil works and what oil doesnt by measuring wear directly. Free oil sponsorship kinda confuses things in the racing world but I think for the most part teams use oil which they believe works. If this is the case then it should speak well of Redline as it is widely used in the racing world and I dont think Redline gives out free oil to a whole bunch of teams.
As was said to Tom Cruise in Jerry Maquire "SHOW ME THE MONEY" I have yet to see this with RedLine usage. This "board" keeps pounding away at readers that UOA is the decisive fact yet it is not when RedLine is the issue. Contradictory!!! Show me the money!
[ September 26, 2003, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Spector ]
Patman
Staff member
Well here is one of the single best UOAs we've ever seen on here, with Redline 5w30 in a Toyota sludge monster too!
Redline 5w30:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000340
Very nice UOA but unrealistic as well with 0 for some numbers. However, let's see three of these and I will have seen the money.
My only point is simply that we keep pushing UOA as the ultimate decision maker on whether to use an oil and with Redline, when those numbers come back poor, we find excuses or reasons. I simply want to see 3 or more good reports because I cannot seem find trend analsyis on any engine using redline, all single samples for the most part, maybe two. People switching oil, weights etc. Not good science and just anecdotal opinions. Let's see trends on redline using the same weight and basically the same change intervals and let's stop finding reasons why an oil doesn't perform as expected regardless of the manufacturer or blender
My only point is simply that we keep pushing UOA as the ultimate decision maker on whether to use an oil and with Redline, when those numbers come back poor, we find excuses or reasons. I simply want to see 3 or more good reports because I cannot seem find trend analsyis on any engine using redline, all single samples for the most part, maybe two. People switching oil, weights etc. Not good science and just anecdotal opinions. Let's see trends on redline using the same weight and basically the same change intervals and let's stop finding reasons why an oil doesn't perform as expected regardless of the manufacturer or blender
I agree with Spector, show me the results. If you look at all of the Redline Oil Analysis we have on this webstie, maybe 2% are spectacular. Thats not enough to convince me it's worth the cost. I don't make excuses for oils. I don't sell them or work for them and I refuse to buy into the hype. I've ripped Amsoil S2k too as that is a very over rated oil. Their ATM, ASL line is a better product at a cheaper cost. The whole point of these websites is to find the truth and move beyond the hype. I will be running Redline next and if I see some drastic reduction in wear numbers, I might consider it. I just think to many people have recommending Redline and making excuses for it when if all we base everything on is UOA's, then Redline is thus far an average oil.
[ September 27, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: buster ]
[ September 27, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: buster ]
I don't use Redline and probably won't in the future so I don't have any incentive to make excuses for them. But it seems to me that Redline users are, on average, the types that drive their cars harder and/or race. So there is a selection effect here. I would expect their UOA's to be worse than other oils, on average, given the types of drivers that use Redline. I think the only way to tell whether this is a great oil or not is to either randomly allocate this oil to different drivers or to have the same driver run several intervals of Redline against some other oil.
That's their right. I think that they spent the $$$ and TIME developing the product, they should reap the $$$ Rewards. But I don't think we can just say that this is the only reason:
1. The MSDS's are not required to list ALL the chemicals in the component, just the ones necessary by LAW.
2. Their blends change, and part of this margin could be to allow them to TWEEK their product as needed based on supplies etc, to A. Keep Costs level, B. To give a better product without extra money, Etc.
These guys buy from a lot of suppliers, and you don't realize how much the *!#@# has hit the fan since 9-11, a lot of prices have increased, including taxes and such, if they left it too tight, they could not meet their SPEC"S and that could be even greater $$$$ problems for them than telling you how much stuff is in their product.
What are the NUmbers Spector?
What, and perhaps better, at WHAT level for what
element or component ""MAKES"" and oil no longer suitable for use? Is it Two or THREE components out of range? What is "THE" Range?
Would Spiking Redline or any other oil until the incrassate is maxed-out and there is the first signs of fall-out (kinda like a drop point) work to discover the true limits of the oils contaminate holding abilities? Would this affect ALL oils lubricity or would some still protect while others degrade at some place before maximum
incrassate appears?
What, and perhaps better, at WHAT level for what
element or component ""MAKES"" and oil no longer suitable for use? Is it Two or THREE components out of range? What is "THE" Range?
Anyone want to list the "criterion". I'm sure there's one or two that can make an educated stab at it.
Would Spiking Redline or any other oil until the incrassate is maxed-out and there is the first signs of fall-out (kinda like a drop point) work to discover the true limits of the oils contaminate holding abilities? Would this affect ALL oils lubricity or would some still protect while others degrade at some place before maximum
incrassate appears?
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