Hyundai Elantra

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: Rand



also SAE 30 refers to a straight 30weight. not any multigrade.

so what you said is also wrong besides being fantasy.
In the context of my post SAE30, of course, refers to the operating viscosity of the lubricant. The engine is water cooled and temp controlled, there is no need to choose a lighter running viscosity that would subtract from the safe margin of operation, ESP knocking about Oceana. You guys remind me of the populus in the film Idiocracy.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: Rand
Originally Posted By: StevieC
This ought to fix it...

That was great. Hadnt seen that pic yet
Funny? Highly ineffectual. Nice lynch mob mentality.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
You shouldnt assume you can use a 0w-20 where a 5w-20 is specified, especially if the engine's sump does not run at or above boil. Looking at the viscosity curve and the 0w should (if a true 0w) present a flatter curve with increasing delta as you move away from the running viscosity. The 0w could present a substantially lower viscosity than the 5w. If the specific engine design and its manufacturing tolerances present loads that exceed the film strenght and boundary lubrication of the lubricant, you will have obvious mechanical noise, increase wear, ring chatter, increasing fuel dilution and subsequent failure. I am no troll- I would say knee jerk, blanket responses without understanding the physics and application are the most dangerous.


Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20

cSt @40C: 45.5
cSt @100C: 8.6
HTHS: 2.6

Mobil 1 5w-20

cSt @40C: 48.3
cSt @100C: 8.8
HTHS: 2.62

At 40C, the difference is minimal-- around 5%. This shouldn't cause any issues.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Rand
Originally Posted By: StevieC
This ought to fix it...

That was great. Hadnt seen that pic yet
Funny? Highly ineffectual. Nice lynch mob mentality.
Just havin' some fun... Relax... I'm not the one that called you a troll. I posted a picture for a laugh. Lighten up.

Here is one that is more suited...

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
You shouldnt assume you can use a 0w-20 where a 5w-20 is specified, especially if the engine's sump does not run at or above boil. Looking at the viscosity curve and the 0w should (if a true 0w) present a flatter curve with increasing delta as you move away from the running viscosity. The 0w could present a substantially lower viscosity than the 5w. If the specific engine design and its manufacturing tolerances present loads that exceed the film strenght and boundary lubrication of the lubricant, you will have obvious mechanical noise, increase wear, ring chatter, increasing fuel dilution and subsequent failure. I am no troll- I would say knee jerk, blanket responses without understanding the physics and application are the most dangerous.


I have no clue what this means.

Using a viscosity calculator, if you extrapolate the difference between say Mobil 1 5w-20 and 0w-20 out to 120C, the viscosities are identical at around 6 cst. At higher temps, the 0w-20 is more viscous!

If you look at data sheets, you'll see many times that the lower "w" grades of a particular brand are thicker at operating temp.

 

[pcfxer]

Quote:
You shouldnt assume you can use a 0w-20 where a 5w-20 is specified, especially if the engine's sump does not run at or above boil.


What? Why is your oil boiling???

Quote:
Looking at the viscosity curve and the 0w should (if a true 0w) present a flatter curve with increasing delta as you move away from the running viscosity. The 0w could present a substantially lower viscosity than the 5w.


The 0w rating, as per the Society of Automotive Engineers will produce LOWER viscosity at LOWER temperatures. That is the definition and characteristic of the Xw rating.

Quote:
If the specific engine design and its manufacturing tolerances present loads that exceed the film strenght and boundary lubrication of the lubricant, you will have obvious mechanical noise, increase wear, ring chatter, increasing fuel dilution and subsequent failure.


Even if the boundary OF lubrication is not exceeded you will have obvious mechanical noise, wear, etc.

Quote:
I am no troll- I would say knee jerk, blanket responses without understanding the physics and application are the most dangerous.


What are trying to say? You are an insane genius with poor communication skills?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: pcfxer
Quote:
You shouldnt assume you can use a 0w-20 where a 5w-20 is specified, especially if the engine's sump does not run at or above boil.


What? Why is your oil boiling???

Arco reply: BP of water, just another way to say 100 deg C at STP. Typical median sump temp in warm climates

Quote:
Looking at the viscosity curve and the 0w should (if a true 0w) present a flatter curve with increasing delta as you move away from the running viscosity. The 0w could present a substantially lower viscosity than the 5w.


The 0w rating, as per the Society of Automotive Engineers will produce LOWER viscosity at LOWER temperatures. That is the definition and characteristic of the Xw rating. Arco reply: That is what I said LOWER viscosity (and increased difference v. 5W as you move down the temp curve and up the viscosity.

Quote:
If the specific engine design and its manufacturing tolerances present loads that exceed the film strenght and boundary lubrication of the lubricant, you will have obvious mechanical noise, increase wear, ring chatter, increasing fuel dilution and subsequent failure.


Even if the boundary OF lubrication is not exceeded you will have obvious mechanical noise, wear, etc.

Quote:
I am no troll- I would say knee jerk, blanket responses without understanding the physics and application are the most dangerous.


What are trying to say? You are an insane genius with poor communication skills? Arco: My response requires a basic understanding of non-newtonian fluid dynamic.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: The Critic


Mobil 1 0w-20 0w-30

cSt @40C: 45.5 63.1
cSt @100C: 8.6 11.0


At 40C, the difference is minimal-- around 5%. This shouldn't cause any issues.


Agreed, thecritic, on the mobil 0w v. 5w. The thread "hijacker" milehigh mentioned he/she is currently running 0w30 and there is a substantial difference here.

 

[pcfxer]

Quote:
Arco reply: BP of water, just another way to say 100 deg C at STP. Typical median sump temp in warm climates


Good call, I know what you mean now.

Quote:
Looking at the viscosity curve and the 0w should (if a true 0w) present a flatter curve with increasing delta as you move away from the running viscosity. The 0w could present a substantially lower viscosity than the 5w.The 0w rating, as per the Society of Automotive Engineers will produce LOWER viscosity at LOWER temperatures. That is the definition and characteristic of the Xw rating. Arco reply: That is what I said LOWER viscosity (and increased difference v. 5W as you move down the temp curve and up the viscosity.


Actually you didn't mention temperature at all - just viscosity. You can't assume that we are looking at the same graphs without specifiying axes of interest. Apparently I need to crack out the physics text and learn non-newtonian fluids. How applicable is this in cars??

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: The Critic


Mobil 1 0w-20 0w-30

cSt @40C: 45.5 63.1
cSt @100C: 8.6 11.0


At 40C, the difference is minimal-- around 5%. This shouldn't cause any issues.


Agreed, thecritic, on the mobil 0w v. 5w. The thread "hijacker" milehigh mentioned he/she is currently running 0w30 and there is a substantial difference here.


This is what you typed though!

"You shouldn't assume you can use a 0w-20 where a 5w-20 is specified, especially if the engine's sump does not run at or above boil. Looking at the viscosity curve and the 0w should (if a true 0w) present a flatter curve with increasing delta as you move away from the running viscosity. The 0w could present a substantially lower viscosity than the 5w."

Whether it's 5w-20, 0w-20, 5w30, or 0w-30, the oil is going to be thinner at operating temp then when cold! So why would a 0w-20 in cold temps be an issue compared to a 5w-20, as both will be dramatically thicker then at operating temp (if you truly were trying to insinuate that you want a 5w-20 in cold temps instead of a 0w-20 because it's thicker and will protect better)?

Since you're an expert in fluid dynamics, wouldn't you agree that the perfect motor oil would be one that stays at the exact same viscosity regardless of temp? Ie, one that stays at the operating temp viscosity and does not thicken when it's temperature drops?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Jeepers, I'm not by any means an expert in fluids - just a couple courses back at Lowell Tech in the 70's. I have been working on Liquid Crystal Polymer (LCP) injection molding of automotive electronic parts recently, so I have been thinking alot about viscous flow in the filling of complex mold shapes. There exist a Moldflow software to assist in the mold cavity design - Big bucks! We also made a run of multi-piece hoods for the Tesla Roadster late last year.

- Adequate and somewhat increased viscosity is required during warmup, due to the large piston to cyl clearance. But, sure, the flatter the vis curve the better in simplified terms.

 

[Rand]

you are a troll arco.. and not even a consistent one.. is there 3 personalities in your head that all have different oil opinions??

in one post you put
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I went to a L-M dealer, when I had an early 200? Bullitt 'stang, specifically to get the 5w20 and dump the FF at 1700miles. I requested 5w20 and they ended up putting in 30wt. Car ran sluggish on the 30wt. Pretty stupid service center - or they just dont care. Allen L-M in Londonderry, NH.


then in another post(this post) you put:
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Dont go to the 0w-20. Hyundai cant cross spec oil weights. Good way to hammer your bearings and knock you piston skirts into submission. the 0w30 is a good choice. The warm motor needs the SAE 30.




??????? what? are you thinking?? your split oil troll personalities make me want to double facepalm.. One isnt enough.


And again SAE 30 refers to a STRAIGHT 30weight oil not a multi-viscosity oil.

so saying it requires SAE 30 weight at temp.. straight 30weight and multi viscosity(5w30 etc) are both 30weight at that temperature. SAE has no meaning or reason in the way you used it.

Every once in a while you spout some knowledge that seems reasonable.. then we get the straight wackjob posts....

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Most postings on forums are the posters opinion - well considered or not. I dont see too many footnotes or rigorous research here. If you don't like my idea, counter it with a thoughfull response - not name calling.

point-1
Simple Ford v. Hyundai. Ford have demonstrated to ME a knowledge on how to build 20wt engines - Hyundai/Kia/Toyota have not - yet.

point-2
SAE 30 is jargon for viscosity of graded 30 engine oil in centi-Stokes at 100degC - quicker for me to say SAE 30 boil. So as not to confuse you, I'll say 30wt in the future.

- Now don't you have something constructive to do other than pick on me?

 

[Rand]

the burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate that the hyundai engines will fail from 20 weight, which they are spec'ed for.

you making random unsubstantiated claims is just a bunch of FUD and you will be called for it.

My eyes bleed everytime I see some random fantasy being spewed that has no factual evidence or basis.

but thats enough Off-Topic for now.


Sorry for trashing the thread guys.

 

[milehigh]

That was fun....err, interesting! Thanks guys!

/Threadjack.

My apologies toyota62...

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: Rand
the burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate that the hyundai engines will fail from 20 weight, which they are spec'ed for.

My eyes bleed everytime I see some random fantasy being spewed that has no factual evidence or basis.

but thats enough Off-Topic for now.


Sorry for trashing the thread guys.


There is NO data out there from manufacturers other than recall data - Automotive manufacturers keep this close-to-the vest. You'll never see it and you'll never know. Ive owned over 60 cars and I'm using my personal database and observations. Anecdotal yes - but thats all the data you'll ever see regarding engine failure rates. I increasingly see and read about piston slap issues - how do you shorten and remove skirt slippers and simultaneously cross spec to 20wt? Ford knows something others dont. On to rod bearings, if Toyotas bearing tolerances are 0.0005"- 0.0025" on the 1NZ what are Hyundais? And do you want to run a grade with a lower safety margin in this environment?

 

[Audioquest]

I have run 20 weight oils on my Accent since 2007. No issue or problems yet.