Hypothetical Honda MTF question.

[Cardenio327]

I change the manual transmission fluid in my Fit every 15,000 miles with genuine MTF. The shifting gets notchy much before that as the car is used for about eight three-mile trips per day with one four or more hour round trip per month. It is mainly used in first and second gears, third is used maybe twice a day. I have not been able to find a reliable source for Redline, Amsoil, or Motul transmission fluid.

My online parts jobber, owned by the same company as Napa Auto Parts, offers a Pentosin DCT fluid. Their seriously lacking online description lists it as Triptronic (I think they mean Tiptronic) fluid for DSG transmissions. Since VW/Audi/Seat are the most popular European cars in Mexico and the only ones that call their gearboxes 'DSG', I'll assume it is Pentosin's FFL-2 product.

Their price is crazy expensive, $17 US per liter, the last time I bought MTF at the dealership, it was $10 a quart, also expensive.

FFL-2's KV 40 °C is 36.3, KV 100 °C is 7.3. On Motul's site they list one of their fluids as being appropriate for both Honda and Volkswagen manual transmissions. What is everyone's opinion on this Pentosin fluid as being an appropriate replacement (and possibly longer lasting) for Honda genuine MTF?

 

[dparm]

The Pentosin stuff could be FFL-2, FFL-3, or FFL-4. FFL-4 can be used in place of 3 or 2, and 3 can be used in place of 2. (basically, 4 supersedes 3, and 3 supersedes 2)

You can get the Pentosin stuff at O'Reilly and NAPA for a bit less, but yeah it's pricey. Consider an alternative equivalent like Motul Multi DCTF. It's what I put in my M3 when it needed new fluid since the OEM BMW stuff (FFL-4) is ridiculously expensive. There's also Castrol Transmax Dual, which is the factory fill in the Mitsubishi Evo's dual-clutch, if I recall correctly.

The DCT fluids are basically 75w85 GL-4 fluids with some tweaks. I would not use it on price alone. Why are you changing your MTF every 15k? That's wayyyy too soon. What is the car spec'd for? Does it just need a 75w90 GL-4?

 

[SatinSilver]

Use some AC Delco Friction Modified MTF in there. Honda issued a tsb using it in the Accords for notchy shifting. I think it was for 3rd gear notchiness. The guys on the Accord forum like it better than the Redline stuff. They seem to replace it every 30k miles.

Another option would be Pennzoil syncromesh. Probably a little less expensive as well.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

My fit fluid was absolutely toast at 20K. I thought the trans needed a rebuild it was so bad, Fresh MTL made it like new a again. I hope it will go to 50K this time as break in is done. IIRC Honda MTF is very near 5w30 Motor oil in visible formulation and it shears quickly. In not surte what magic sauce is really in there. The thing shifts like a video game console with fresh fluid. Snick-snick - no balking whatsoever.

 

[dparm]

That's really surprising. Both of my Hondas (Integra GS-R, S2000) did well on the Honda MTF for 30k+. I always had the clutch fluid changed at the same time too.

You are correct that it is very near a 5w30.

 

[camelCase]

If you're changing your fluid every 15,000miles, i don't think it would matter too much since that fluid is basically brand new. Are you doing UOAs on it or is it all "seat of the pants" analysis?

Really, you can use any ATF or MTF in your transmission. It's just a standard gearbox, nothing too crazy special about it. I'd personally go buy a bit of Mobil1 ATF or some similar "higher end but not race quality" atf fluid and use that.

Quote:
IIRC Honda MTF is very near 5w30 Motor oil in visible formulation


75W90 oil is very close in viscosity to a 40wt engine oil. A thin 75W90 wouldn't have much visual difference from a 5w30 engine oil.

It's just a manual transmission. Nothing special about it. If you're changing the oil every 15,000 miles, just put a higher end consumer grade ATF in it and be done with the stress and worrying.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
It's just a manual transmission. Nothing special about it. If you're changing the oil every 15,000 miles, just put a higher end consumer grade ATF in it and be done with the stress and worrying.


OP, with the inferred shearing and oxidation going on in your MT, and due to your temps, I would not use an ATF since it does not have the anti-wear additives you need for your environment.

You could extend your OCI's to about 30k by using the following recommended MTL's:

Quote:


G. The next group of MTL’s are in the 10.x cSt [@100C] range are:

1. Redline MTL 75W80

2. Amsoil MTL (9.7 cSt)

3. GM Synchromesh’s

4. Volvo MTF 645

5. Ford Motor Craft XT-M5-QS

6. Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF


H. The next higher viscosity MTL would be:

1. Redline MT-85 – 12.0 cSt

 

[Cardenio327]

Thank you MolaKule.

I'll see if I can get the ACDelco or Motorcraft fluid. The others are pretty much out of the question. I sent a message to the only Amsoil dealer on the Mexican version of EBay, but I'm not holding my breath. Someone asked the Red Line dealer two weeks ago the same question and got a negative response.

 

[Cardenio327]

Originally Posted By: camelCase
If you're changing your fluid every 15,000miles, i don't think it would matter too much since that fluid is basically brand new. Are you doing UOAs on it or is it all "seat of the pants" analysis?

Really, you can use any ATF or MTF in your transmission. It's just a standard gearbox, nothing too crazy special about it. I'd personally go buy a bit of Mobil1 ATF or some similar "higher end but not race quality" atf fluid and use that.


Fit transmissions have carbon fiber synchros on second and third gears, so that rules out most GL-4 and all dual rated GL-5 fluids.

I have changed the fluid twice, once at 15,000 and again at 30,000 miles. Both times it began to shift perfectly with the fluid change. At 5,000 miles the shifting is somewhat notchy, by 15,000 it is terrible.

Honda specs a 25,000 mile OCI. The dealers here either use straight 90 GL-1 or 80w-90 GL-5 to reach 25,000 while avoiding complaints. I imagine the carbon fiber sychros are destroyed by either of those fluids. The whole automotive dealership industry here is designed to get the cars through their short warranty mileages with as few as possible expensive problems, then to begin to fall apart immediately due to sloppy lacking maintenance. Probably 80% of Mexican consumers think that a car only lasts 60,000 miles.

 

[dparm]

That's really surprising to hear from Honda. For many years their manual transmissions were a Holy Grail.

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: camelCase
If you're changing your fluid every 15,000miles, i don't think it would matter too much since that fluid is basically brand new. Are you doing UOAs on it or is it all "seat of the pants" analysis?

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Quote:
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Yeah, pretty much, but Honda MTF is a good fluid for the application if it's being changed that often. You can buy it online for less than most dealers will sell it for directly.