Hypothesis:thicker cold means less warm up wear

[Clevy]

K

So we are saying that warm up is where most wear occurs right. And that cold oil provides a no wear hydrodynamic wedge til the oil heats up right.
Now I'm not talking about below freezing temps. Let's say 70 degree ambient.
So wouldn't a thicker oil cold like a 10w vs a 0w keep a hydrodynamic wedge longer as the oil warms up enough to activate the anti-wear additives.

Because if we believe that cold oil creates a positive oil wedge then doesn't common sense say keeping the oil thick yet pump able will lessen wear vs a thinner when cold oil?

 

[Leo99]

Isn't viscosity a measure of pumpable?

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Leo99
Isn't viscosity a measure of pumpable?


Thanks for adding nothing

 

[expat]

Originally Posted By: Leo99
Isn't viscosity a measure of pumpable?


I would say NO.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
This is the point of the Sequence IVA wear test. The engine (Nissan KA24E) is operated between an idle speed and 1500RPM, with the oil temperature controlled to 49-59C. There is plenty of oil volume, just at the wrong temperature. The choice of temperature and engine speed ensures that the situation is the "perfect storm" for camshaft wear, in mixed mode, but the Anti-Wear additives not functional...it still takes 100 hours to do the test...


Ravenol 0w-16 Sequence IVA Test Result = 24.

Source: http://www.ravenol.de/fileadmin/content/documents/pdfs/Ravenol_EFE_SAE_0W-16__en.pdf

Making it statistically indistinguishable from Synpower & Castrol Edge 5w30.

Source: Selda Gunsel, Manager, Lubricants Technology Group, Shell Global Solutions (US) Inc.

http://www.jobbersworld.com/March%2020,%202009.htm

 

[gregk24]

Cold oil is already much thicker than it needs to be.

 

[Uregina09]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
Cold oil is already much thicker than it needs to be.


Thanks for adding nothing.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
Cold oil is already much thicker than it needs to be.



Obviously by this answer you don't understand the concept I'm trying to get across and has gone over your head.
If you have nothing to contribute please don't contribute.

If anyone has something more than nonsense to add please do.
If you've got nothing more than "cold oil is already too thick" please just save it.
Greg.
How your post adds anything to the thread is beyond me.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Uregina09
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Cold oil is already much thicker than it needs to be.


Thanks for adding nothing.



Ha.

You beat me to it.


I'm looking to establish if a 10w will establish full hydrodynamic lubrication for longer during warm up than a 0w and thereby potentially lessen wear during warm up.
And if that is the case the whole thinner at start up mantra we are being told is wrong.

We are told that thinner at start up lessens wear however we now know that most wear happens during warm up until the additive package activates.
So if the oil can stay thicker til the additive package activates wouldn't that translate to less wear overall.

That is the premise of the thread. If you've got nothing intelligent to add please go pollute someone else's thread.

All oils too thick when cold.
Great answer. Well thought out. Obviously put a lot of time into that one.

 

[901Memphis]

It's not his fault the forum 101 has information like this.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
If anyone has something more than nonsense to add please do.


I've already given proof that a 0w-16 protects as well as a 5w-30 at startup based on the parameters of the Seq IVA which Shannow has said is the perfect storm where the anti wear additives have not been activated yet.

Care to comment on that?

Btw, the Seq IVA test has been applicable for xw20 for a while now and at the same pass rate as for xw30.

It was applicable from API SL / ILSAC GF-3 from what I understand. 120 microns for SL / GF-3 and down to 90 microns from SM / GF-4.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Benito
Originally Posted By: Clevy
If anyone has something more than nonsense to add please do.


I've already given proof that a 0w-16 protects as well as a 5w-30 at startup based on the parameters of the Seq IVA which Shannow has said is the perfect storm where the anti wear additives have not been activated yet.

Care to comment on that?



I've got your latest incarnation on ignore. Jk363 or mori of whigkeber previously banned member you are

A 5w compared to a 0w isn't enough of a spread to matter. I'm referring to start up/warm up wear when the additive package isn't activated and the viscosity is the ONLY form of part separation going on.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
A 5w compared to a 0w isn't enough of a spread to matter. I'm referring to start up/warm up wear when the additive package isn't activated and the viscosity is the ONLY form of part separation going on.


Have you read the test methodology?

Btw, what does "of whigkeber" mean? Sounds like you're trying to spell something ending in "beer" which kind of makes sense.

 

[gathermewool]

The hydrodynamic wedge is formed by the relative motion between the rotating crank and stationary bearing (just one bearing surface, for reference.) At zero load, at idle, is the wedge really being overwhelmed (ie, would anti-wear additives really be fully in play at low-load idle?)

I always thought that the anti-wear additives were more in play during high-load, low viscosity conditions, such as high load and high oil temps.

Finally, isn't the increased wear while warming up due to the differing rates of expansion of moving parts and their associated bearing surfaces - rod/crank, piston ring/cylinder wall, etc?

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
...I'm referring to start up/warm up wear when the additive package isn't activated and the viscosity is the ONLY form of part separation going on.



But the last run's additive package HAS deposited its AW film.

Let's say after an oil change the new oil's ZDDP and moly hasn't warmed up enough to activate, the calcium and boron provide low temp anti-wear activity until they do activate.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
The hydrodynamic wedge is formed by the relative motion between the rotating crank and stationary bearing (just one bearing surface, for reference.) At zero load, at idle, is the wedge really being overwhelmed (ie, would anti-wear additives really be fully in play at low-load idle?)

I always thought that the anti-wear additives were more in play during high-load, low viscosity conditions, such as high load and high oil temps.

Finally, isn't the increased wear while warming up due to the differing rates of expansion of moving parts and their associated bearing surfaces - rod/crank, piston ring/cylinder wall, etc?




These are the kind of answers I'm looking for.

Thank you

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Clevy
...I'm referring to start up/warm up wear when the additive package isn't activated and the viscosity is the ONLY form of part separation going on.



But the last run's additive package HAS deposited its AW film.

Let's say after an oil change the new oil's ZDDP and moly hasn't warmed up enough to activate, the calcium and boron provide low temp anti-wear activity until they do activate.




Alright.

So the anti wear layer is laid down.
My question is whether a thicker cold viscosity will maintain full hydrodynamic for longer than a thinner one.

For example will a 15w-40 maintain full hydrodynamic for longer than a 0w-40 when started cold,until the oil has achieved operating temp and the additive package starts doing its thing.

I'm not saying that's what I believe. It's just that I was reading the thicker is better thread and it got me thinking about this and I was hoping for intelligent answers either way.

My thought was that is it possible that an oil with a higher pre-w viscosity will maintain full hydrodynamic parts separation for longer than an oil of the same secondary value,until of course the oil is up to operating temp.
And if so then we aren't getting a complete picture when we are told that faster pumpability is as important as it's being claimed.

 

[Benito]

Your hypothesis and the title of your thread was that a thicker oil cold would result in less wear than a thinner oil cold. (Refer to your opening post).

The Seq IVA test, which is part of the certification for API & ILSAC oils, can test for that by actually measuring wear.

I gave you proof that a 0w-16 (a thinner oil) can achieve a wear rating identical to 5w30 (a thicker oil) full syn from Castrol & Valvoline.

You're welcome.

 

[Clevy]

K

I've got a 10w-30 and a 0w-30 in 2 test mules,identical engines on stands.

It's 0c(freezing). Does the 10w-30 maintain full hydrodynamic for longer than the 0w-30 since the 10w-30 will be thicker at start up,until the oil is up to operating temp.
I'm trying to get guys to think deeply about this. We know that when the oil is cold it is so thick it maintains full hydrodynamic parts separation(0 wear) and only as the oil thins with heat this film weakens until it's hot enough to activate the additive package.
I'm asking if a thicker cold value will maintain full hydrodynamic for longer and thereby lessen wear.

 

[expat]

Interesting, I await answers.

My gut says, a low viscosity oil would leave a thinner hydraulic wedge (after the engine's first revolution ) than a higher viscosity oil.

Considering that it can take 10's of revolutions for oil pressure to build, might a high viscosity oil ward-off metal to metal contact longer than a low viscosity oil?

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Clevy


...So the anti wear layer is laid down.
My question is whether a thicker cold viscosity will maintain full hydrodynamic for longer than a thinner one.

For example will a 15w-40 maintain full hydrodynamic for longer than a 0w-40 when started cold,until the oil has achieved operating temp and the additive package starts doing its thing.



In the case of your specific example, no.

The VII will thicken the oil as the temp rises.

The hydrodynamic wedge will be there as long as there is an oil film of sufficient thickness to support the load.

The main advantage of say a 0W40 is to allow more flow to other parts of the engine during cooler temperatures.