Hybrid owner sues Honda over mileage claims

Status
Not open for further replies.
Link requires a login.

I have no idea about this guy, but I get reasonably close to EPA in my hybrid. I hear another anti-hybird axe grinding. Very few cars (with a few exceptions), conventional or hybrid, actually hit EPA on a routine basis. So why lay this at the hybrid'd feet???
dunno.gif
 
I am passed a lot on the hwy from hybrids. In Michigan the hwy speed limit is 70, most go 80 including myself, these cars pass me like I was standing still, easily going over 90-95mph. I doubt they get the stated milage. How can they sue over their driving habits?
 
Quote:


I am passed a lot on the hwy from hybrids. In Michigan the hwy speed limit is 70, most go 80 including myself, these cars pass me like I was standing still, easily going over 90-95mph. I doubt they get the stated milage. How can they sue over their driving habits?




As with any car, the faster you go, the lower the mileage. Hybrids aren't any exception -- they're good, but they don't get a pass on the laws of physics.

Personally, I enjoy the, "you drive fast so why do you need a hybrid" questions. Hey, I just like having the choice of slowing down to 65-70 and getting over 50 mpg, or if I'm in a hurry, picking up to 80-ish and still routinely getting over 45 mpg. A fast-driven hybrid is a great way to have cake and eat it too.
cheers.gif
 
Honda hybrid owner sues over fuel economy
By David Shepardson
MediaNews

California musician sues Honda for overstating fuel economy of Civic hybrid

WASHINGTON - Facing $3-a-gallon gasoline prices in California last year, John True decided to stop driving his Mercedes-Benz E320 and bought a Honda Civic Hybrid.

Impressed by the gas-electric hybrid's advertised mileage - 49 miles per gallon in the city, 51 mpg on the highway - True plunked down $28,470, at least $7,000 more than for a comparable non-hybrid Civic EX.

But after 6,000 miles of driving, True said he averaged just 32 mpg in mixed city/highway driving. So in March, True, a professional jazz piano player in Ontario in Southern California, filed a class-action lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Riverside, in what appears to be the first legal challenge of the mileage claims of hybrid vehicles.

True's frustration with the actual mileage of his hybrid vs. the advertised mileage echoes that of other owners, many of whom voice their complaints on online message boards, and reflects the findings of some independent tests, including one by Consumer Reports.

The lawsuit claims American Honda Motor has misled consumers in its advertisements and on its Web site. The suit notes that while the Environmental Protection Agency and automobile window stickers say "mileage will vary," some of Honda's advertisements read "mileage may vary." That implies that it's possible to get the mileage advertised, said William H. Anderson, a Washington, D.C., attorney for True.

One Honda magazine ad claimed owners could get up to 650 miles on a

single tank of gas, while Honda's Web site features a fuel-savings calculator that assumes hybrid Civic drivers will average 51 mpg.
"This case does seek relief for tens of thousands of consumers like Mr. True, who purchased the HCH expecting to benefit from its `remarkable' fuel efficiency, and paid thousands of dollars extra for an HCH that looks identical and performs basically the same as the non-hybrid Honda Civic," said a June 4 court filing.

Honda and others note that EPA tests, which hadn't been revised in two decades, have overstated average fuel economy for all vehicles. Last year, the EPA announced it was revising its testing procedures to better reflect real-world driving conditions, beginning with the 2008 model year. Many models on sale now have the new EPA labels.

"I can tell you that the 49/51 figures are EPA numbers, not Honda numbers," Honda spokesman Sage Marie said Thursday. "Some customers achieve the EPA mpg figures and some don't, as fuel-economy performance is a function of conditions, traffic, driving style, load, etc."

He said the "vast majority of Civic Hybrid customers are satisfied with the performance since it delivers consistently and substantially higher numbers than comparable non-hybrid vehicles in the real world. It is possible to attain the EPA estimates, and customers do all the time."

Last month, Honda announced it would stop selling the hybrid version of the Honda Accord later this year, citing slow sales. Sales of the hybrid Civic have been much better. Through June, Honda has sold 17,141 Civic hybrids, up 7.4 percent over last year.

In an interview Thursday, Anderson said True's legal team will begin the process of discovery, in an effort to determine how many complaints Honda has received and what the automaker's internal mileage testing shows.

"It's just dishonest to twist the numbers that they know people can't get," Anderson said. Just because the EPA conducts tests, it doesn't give Honda license to advertise fuel-economy numbers that aren't achievable, he said.

Andrew Frank, a mechanical engineering professor at the University of California-Davis, and father of the plug-in hybrid, said drivers don't realize that aggressive driving dramatically reduces fuel economy, especially in hybrids.

"The hybrids are much more sensitive to the way you drive than a conventional car," Frank said.

Consumer Reports found in October 2005 that the Honda Civic Hybrid averaged just 26 mpg in city driving - 46 percent below the EPA estimate. Other hybrids also averaged below estimates.
 
Quote:


Quote:


I am passed a lot on the hwy from hybrids. In Michigan the hwy speed limit is 70, most go 80 including myself, these cars pass me like I was standing still, easily going over 90-95mph. I doubt they get the stated milage. How can they sue over their driving habits?




As with any car, the faster you go, the lower the mileage. Hybrids aren't any exception -- they're good, but they don't get a pass on the laws of physics.

Personally, I enjoy the, "you drive fast so why do you need a hybrid" questions. Hey, I just like having the choice of slowing down to 65-70 and getting over 50 mpg, or if I'm in a hurry, picking up to 80-ish and still routinely getting over 45 mpg. A fast-driven hybrid is a great way to have cake and eat it too.
cheers.gif





My point was just because its a hybrid doesnt mean you can drive 80-90-100 mph and still get great gas milage. But you are right can't complain about 45mpg.

I love it when they interview people about the gas prices and the people who are being interviewed drive full sized SUV's or pick-up trucks and of course they complain about gas prices...
 
The Insight requires you to pay attention to the indicators on the dash and DO WHAT THEY SAY. If you don't, you get average mileage and crummy battery performance. If you do, then you get the good stuff. From what I've heard about the whole thing, the average consumer will be either too stupid or too impatient to operate the car as it's meant to be.
 
I'd kill for an Insight right now. Neat little cars....

Yep, we still make a conscious decision to drive fast. We shouldn't blame our cars. I can make my SAAB get 18 mpg or 34 mpg depending on driving habits. Maybe I'll sue SAAB b/c I get better mpg than the window sticker?
laugh.gif
 
Just another JERK trying to sue somebody. Since the EPA sets the driving profile, he should try to sue the EPA. he probably will get nowhere and the only thing accomplished will be us taxpayers footing the defense bill.
 
Thats the American way though. Mileage does vary too much with a hybrid. To acheive close to the average MPG, one much drive gently. You'll only get 32MPG at high rates of speed until the batteries die down, then then engine will be racing to feed the drivetrain and the electric motor.
 
Quote:


Thats the American way though. Mileage does vary too much with a hybrid. To acheive close to the average MPG, one much drive gently. You'll only get 32MPG at high rates of speed until the batteries die down, then then engine will be racing to feed the drivetrain and the electric motor.




Max:

That's absolutely not true, at least with respect to the Prius. It's true that if you really drive it gently and carefully, you can increase your mileage substantially, in some cases, even well in excess of EPA. On the other hand, any driving habits that are within a wide range of reasonable will still allow the car to produce outstanding results. Often during the work week, I'm to rushed and mentally pre-occupied to really play the car's "game," and I just drive it as I feel I want to -- and I still get results in the high 40s and not infrequently above 50.

That battery rundown thing is also just not true. The only time you really see persistent rundown is if you climb into the mountains, to high altitude over many miles, or if you find yourself waiting at a standstill with the AC on (as in a bad traffic jam or at the McDonalds drive-thru on a busy day). I've routinely driven for 200 miles at 80 mpg getting mid-40s while the battery gradually cycles back and forth between approximately 55 to 65% state of charge. Only under some narrow, specific conditions will the system pull the traction battery down to minimal levels.

Remember, the traction battery in current hybrids is really just a small "energy buffer". It "soaks up" power when braking or decelerating, or when the ICE is producing excess power, and then re-converts back to drive power when the conditions are right.
 
The salesman who sold this guy the Honda seen him coming from a mile away. I would just like to here some quotes from the conversation they had.

It looks like Honda is going to take one for there sales tactics. Plus when you make commision you'll sell people what they want to hear.
 
MPG is 100% dependent on driving style. Given this fella's litigious nature to begin with, I can guess that he hammers down at every green and slams the brakes at every red, not to mention sits in L.A.s beautiful traffic all day long with the A/C on. I'd like to know what his Mercedes was getting - probably around 15mpg.
 
Quote:


Link requires a login.

I have no idea about this guy, but I get reasonably close to EPA in my hybrid. I hear another anti-hybird axe grinding. Very few cars (with a few exceptions), conventional or hybrid, actually hit EPA on a routine basis. So why lay this at the hybrid'd feet???
dunno.gif







I do actually get the 27/32 Mpg claimed on my big 'ol Impala.
Sometimes even better,and sometimes worse.

And yes driving style makes a big difference.
smile.gif


Rickey.
 
I think its kinda' funny that this is all about Honda - the 'we didn't get it' MPG for the prius is usually higher both % wise and total mpg .

Well , I guess it figures , not a peep about the ongoing Class Action Suit brought by toyota Prius owners concerning the handling of the tax rebate information during purchase .

Then Honda gets cracked on the odometer thing and nobody goes after the industry leading mpg miscalculator onboard the Prius .


Oh well , that kinda double standard thing is part of why Hondas stronger
thumbsup.gif
 
Quote:



Honda and others note that EPA tests, which hadn't been revised in two decades, have overstated average fuel economy for all vehicles.




But yet, Honda uses these numbers in advertising.
smirk.gif
 
Quote:




But yet, Honda uses these numbers in advertising.
smirk.gif





Just like every other car maker. EPA fuel economy gives you a way to measure different cars against each other.

I guess we need dumb that one down and just give a letter category from least effecient to most effiecient.

This would be like suing Road and Track because you can't run the [censored]' slalom as fast as they did...
 
U.S. plans to change car mileage tests

"The new EPA calculations will have the greatest impact on hybrid-electric vehicles, the agency said, cutting estimated fuel economy sharply on some of the industry's most sought-after models..."

Some interesting real world mpg numbers reported here:
Hybrid Cars and Fuel Efficiency

"For example, according to a previous Consumer Reports study, a number of Dodges achieve a whopping 8 mpg in the city. Chrysler's 300C, estimated to achieve 17 mpg, actually achieves just 10 mpg. The worst culprit, the Jeep Liberty Diesel, estimated at 22 mpg in the city, actually achieves only 11 mpg..."

"CR notes that the Honda Civic hybrid only achieved 24 mpg in the city - missing its EPA estimated city fuel economy by 46 percent."
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom