Hybrid owner sues Honda over mileage claims

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For the last couple months, I've been running between 45-50 mpg in my Prius when I'm preoccupied and not "playing the game." When I decide to work at it, I can get the car over 50 mpg avg, no problem. Don't know about the Civic hybrid, but the Prius is easily capable of performing close to the current EPA numbers. I don't feel mislead by the EPA numbers at all. Of course, I understand their "comparative" nature.
 
I drive a Prius and you must lean some new driving habits and pay attention while driving to get the best mileage. The car can not do it all. If you are not willing to do that then it's possible that you will be unhappy with you mileage. If you are capable of learning and paying attention while driving you will see the results of your efforts and be able to refine your technique. On some drives when you mileage is down you will understand why. There is no need to go to court and make a public spectacle of yourself.
 
Come to think of it , maybe every HSG equiped vehicle would, regardless of the merits of the Suit itself , qualify for inclusion .


This would be based on reported Real World MPG observations and measurements .

In the case of the prius , this for several reasons , is very difficult to measure accurately . Can't trust the onboard calculator - always reads at or high - and usually high at that.

Worth noting , even using this onboard miscalculator, prius owners in extreme duty cycles have reported on prius forums 11.5mpg - and less .

From an old article on a VW Forum where it has been/is available in its entirety -



http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2117870&page=1



2006 Lexus RX 400h: The Hybrid Emperor's New Clothes
The New York Times

By Jeff Sabatini

July 31, 2005

CHICAGO -- One question lingers after driving the 2006 Lexus RX 400h: How did it come to this, that Toyota is now selling a hybrid gas-electric vehicle with no tangible fuel economy benefits?

In my test-driving, the Lexus hybrid, which is based on the gasoline-only RX 330, did not achieve better mileage than the 2005 RX 330 that I drove for comparison.

My hybrid tester's window sticker did boast a federal mileage rating of 31 miles per gallon in the city and 27 on the highway, compared with just 18 and 24 for the RX without the hybrid drivetrain. But the government's testing procedure has a habit - one that seems to be exaggerated with hybrids - of rendering fuel economy numbers as relevant to the real world as national energy policies have been to actually reducing dependence on foreign oil.

Speaking of which, isn't that what hybrids are all about: conservation, improved fuel economy, weaning the nation off its oil habit? Perhaps not any longer.

The hybrid version of the Lexus sport utility wagon follows in the tracks of the 2005 Honda Accord Hybrid ( probably more ways than one ) by offering more horsepower than the conventional version of the same vehicle, a markedly different approach than that of economy-focused hybrids like Toyota's own Prius or Honda's Civic Hybrid. In this case we're talking 268 horsepower for the RX 400h, versus 230 for the gasoline-only RX 330.

True, Toyota is not marketing the RX 400h as being environmentally friendly, focusing instead on its performance and typical Lexus luxuriousness. While this may provide the company some absolution, the RX 400h's failure to deliver, in my experience, even a nominal improvement in gas mileage still seems like a sin of omission. It has been fundamental to the understanding and acceptance of hybrids that they offer better fuel economy than vehicles powered by conventional gasoline engines. Toyota itself helped to establish that impression
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with its Prius.

A hybrid's improved economy is primarily accomplished in city driving, - "


" -My first seat time in the Lexus hybrid came over a weekend in which I drove the 200 miles from Chicago to Grand Rapids, Mich. I spent a lot of time on the freeway, but I also traveled some back roads and slogged through a couple of stop-and-go city stints. By the time I returned to Chicago, I had put 531 miles on the odometer and calculated my fuel economy at 20.9 m.p.g. - "

Notice - didn't use the onboard computer .
 
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Worth noting , even using this onboard miscalculator, prius owners in extreme duty cycles have reported on prius forums 11.5mpg - and less .



What does extreme duty mean? Does it mean making nothing but 1/4 mile dragstrip passes?
 
G20:

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Worth noting , even using this onboard miscalculator, prius owners in extreme duty cycles have reported on prius forums 11.5mpg - and less .




I'm calling you on this one. Let's see your proof -- where is it??? I've driven mine for a year, and never managed to get below the high 30s, in an extreme combination of adverse circumstances (car heavily loaded, very cold weather, headwind, and being in a hurry).

So, tell us exactly where this "report" is coming from.

I veryify my on-board computer results with good old fashioned pump math. Probably 2/3 of the time the computer is "optimistic" but only to the tune of 1-3 mpg. Sometimes it's virtually dead-on, and occasionally, the actual math reveals better results.

And here you are again, shoveling out more false info:
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A hybrid's improved economy is primarily accomplished in city driving, - "


.

Yes, it's true that the HSD design's greatest benefit is derived in city-style stop-and-go driving. But they still do great on the highway too, for a couple reasons. First, on the highway, the engine cycles back and forth between emphasizing gas vs electric. Second, in part because of the electric "supplementation" the engineers were able to design the engine for aggressive Atkinson cycle operation.

Bottom line: in my 3000 lb Prius, I still normally get near 50 mpg while cruising at almost 80 mph. That's substantially better than a much lighter Corolla. My good friend who bought a Camry hybrid is averaging 36-37 mpg, substantially better than the the conventional Camrys.
 
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Worth noting , even using this onboard miscalculator, prius owners in extreme duty cycles have reported on prius forums 11.5mpg - and less .



What does extreme duty mean? Does it mean making nothing but 1/4 mile dragstrip passes?




It means fiction writing. I'm a member on several Prius forums, and I have not seen such reports. Anyone who might be reporting such results either doesn't know how to track mpg, or they are seriously abusing their car.
 
I would like to chime in on this 11.5 mpg, and this from someone that drives a Prius, not just an outside observer, and maybe EKPolk can add a direct comment to my statement. I think that it is absolutely impossible to get anything close to 11.5 mpg no matter what one does to abuse the car, loaded, pulling a trailer, driving to the speed limiter, windows open, a/c on and battery discharged driving on a hot summer day on the highest mountain road in the US. On Hwy15 north of Escondido there is a stretch of freeway where, at off peak traffic time, the flow of traffic is from 80 to sometimes 100+ mph, for about 50 miles. I have driven that stretch with four of us in the car at 90 or so on hot days with the a/c on and have an indicated mpg in the mid 30's. And to answer the question, yes the indicated mileage is very close, usually reads one or two mpg over the mileage calculated at the pump and averaged over three or more fills.

I find it hard to imagine dropping it from the 30's to 11.5. This is one of the many statements I've come across from people that have never driven one and have no idea how they work. We have a bunch of Prius's in fleet service and have not of the problems that I hear plague the Prius. We have those that give up some of their car budget to get into a Prius when they could have had a more expensive car. In the motor pools where people can pick one of many kinds of cars, the Prius is the first car checked out, always. Of those that drive one from the motor pools, quit a few have purchased one for themselves. Those that use the motor pool Prius's talk to each other about the car and exchange tips on driving the car. I do not hear that enthusiasm about any other car. It's not a car for everyone and it is expensive but it's basically a good car and the single most reliable car in a large fleet. The main problem I've experienced with the car is statements by uninformed people that feel they must say something negative. In fact I put the ring-leader of the negative comments in one for a weak to let him prove to us what a pos the Prius is. He extended it from a week to two weeks, then a month and kept this 80k 05 for his regular car and is about to receive a new 07 for his fleet driver. His name is Paul, very fitting.

Anyhow, this car is definitely not for everyone but I think the negative statements are generally, a good recommendation. Any car that generates that much negative notice and sells as fast as they can be made, is worth looking at.
 
I could see the car getting around that if you climbed Pikes Peak with it. I got about 12 mpg with my Monte Carlo climbing, and subsequently descending Pikes Peak...
 
I was thinking maybe you could get a Prius to the neighborhood of 11 mpg by chaining a large ship anchor to the car and dragging it around. . .
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I could see the car getting around that if you climbed Pikes Peak with it. I got about 12 mpg with my Monte Carlo climbing, and subsequently descending Pikes Peak...




An interesting idea. Actually, long hill climbs are one one scenario in which the Toyota hybrid design can be challenged, since you can exhaust the traction battery long before it has a chance to regenerate. Once that occurs, I'd expect instant mileage to drop to whatever range you'd expect for a 3000 lb car being propelled by a 1.5L I-4. It would probably, I expect, generate marginally better results than your Monte, but not by very much. This is based upon my understanding that the Monte is a 6 cyl car, and weighs several hundred pounds more than the Prius. In concept, however, I agree. Once the battery loses the ability to supplement the ICE, the hybrid system advantage is gone.
 
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