Hybrid Cost

[supton]

Hydrogen powered technology might have a place... somewhere... but I'm not sure where. I've been reading about it for 30 years now, guessing it's been around for longer. It's almost in the league of perpetual motion machines, really: where do you get the hydrogen, and how do you make it energy dense enough to make it useful? The explosive side of things, that used to worry me, but these days I'm not sure that energy-dense batteries aren't too far from that level of danger--and let's be real, you get a vehicle with 15-35 gallons of gasoline underneath you, and just exactly what is that in terms of safety? But yes, compressing it, then pumping it into vehicles, no small hurdles there.

Personally I consider H2 a (lousy) battery technology. I'm shocked whenever someone is working on it, again.

 

[IveBeenRued]

Yes true but under warranty the resale still is bad

False. I just pulled KBB figures for a 2020 RAV4 Limited vs 2020 RAV4h Limited with 25K miles and only standard features. Trade in values came out to $27,907 for the naturally aspirated vs $29,885 for the hybrid.

It gets closer as you get up there in mileage but the hybrid owners are still way ahead. I also pulled KBB for a 2016 RAV4 vs RAV4h with 90K miles (out of all warranties except in CA emissions states) and only standard features. Trade in values came out to $15,782 for naturally aspirated vs. $16,572 for the hybrid. Seeing how to get these two cars to 90K it will take an additional 916 gallons of fuel (using the latest Fuelly averages), at $2.50/gallon average that’s $2,290 more in fuel costs. Combine the fuel savings with the $790 for added trade in and subtract the original MSRP difference of $700, an owner of the hybrid is still ahead by $2,380 at the 6Y/90K mark.


Haters are always going to hate, but the average person will more often than not come out way ahead with a hybrid (especially people who are hard on their brakes).

 

[Zee09]

False. I just pulled KBB figures for a 2020 RAV4 Limited vs 2020 RAV4h Limited with 25K miles and only standard features. Trade in values came out to $27,907 for the naturally aspirated vs $29,885 for the hybrid.

It gets closer as you get up there in mileage but the hybrid owners are still way ahead. I also pulled KBB for a 2016 RAV4 vs RAV4h with 90K miles (out of all warranties except in CA emissions states) and only standard features. Trade in values came out to $15,782 for naturally aspirated vs. $16,572 for the hybrid. Seeing how to get these two cars to 90K it will take an additional 916 gallons of fuel (using the latest Fuelly averages), at $2.50/gallon average that’s $2,290 more in fuel costs. Combine the fuel savings with the $790 for added trade in and subtract the original MSRP difference of $700, an owner of the hybrid is still ahead by $2,380 at the 6Y/90K mark.


Haters are always going to hate, but the average person will more often than not come out way ahead with a hybrid (especially people who are hard on their brakes).

I do not see that in the real world.
Not disputing your facts at all but most car dealers here don't even want them. Has to be battery fear.

I got hosed on many trade INS.
Shopped them around too.
Honda, Toyota, and Ford.
East coast. I am still a fan.

 

[IveBeenRued]

I do not see that in the real world.
Not disputing your facts at all but most car dealers here don't even want them. Has to be battery fear.

I got hosed on many trade INS.
Shopped them around too.
Honda, Toyota, and Ford.
East coast. I am still a fan.

I’ve traded two hybrids to date and got just a over KBB value (3.5% and 18% over). I’ve traded three naturally aspirated vehicles and got KBB or just a tad over (0-4.3% over KBB) for all three. Maybe it’s because I’m near Northern VA vs MD.

 

[Zee09]

I just ran two 17 Camrys
Same everything 80k miles
Black.
$11,401. For gas
$9866. For hybrid
Both trade in...

 

[Zee09]

I’ve traded two hybrids to date and got just a over KBB value (3.5% and 18% over). I’ve traded three naturally aspirated vehicles and got KBB or just a tad over (0-4.3% over KBB) for all three. Maybe it’s because I’m near Northern VA vs MD.

Weird...i'm with you as I like mine.
I wont get much on my C-max because they are no longer made.
2016 model

Edit...I suspect you are close to the DC market.. I'm two hours or so away. Near Delaware.

 

[IveBeenRued]

Weird...i'm with you as I like mine.
I wont get much on my C-max because they are no longer made.
2016 model

Edit...I suspect you are close to the DC market.. I'm two hours or so away. Near Delaware.

When I traded my 2013 C-Max Energi last year, I got $5,900 with no hassle. KBB had the car at $4,988. The car sat for less than 2 days and sold off the lot.

I just ran KBB for 2017 Camry vs Camry Hybrid. XLE models, 70K, standard options. Came out to $13,551 for naturally aspirated vs $13,760 for the hybrid.

I am about 1.25-1.5 hours away from DC near Front Royal. Maybe the location makes a huge difference. Come on out our way to trade your cars and check out Shenandoah while you’re at it.

 

[Zee09]

When I traded my 2013 C-Max Energi last year, I got $5,900 with no hassle. KBB had the car at $4,988. The car sat for less than 2 days and sold off the lot.

I just ran KBB for 2017 Camry vs Camry Hybrid. XLE models, 70K, standard options. Came out to $13,551 for naturally aspirated vs $13,760 for the hybrid.

I am about 1.25-1.5 hours away from DC near Front Royal. Maybe the location makes a huge difference. Come on out our way to trade your cars and check out Shenandoah while you’re at it.

I used to be out that way many years ago. Before 301 was congested. King George etc...

 

[Sveina]

I once had a plug in hybrid. The problems were huge, with a bill of as much as my diesel consumption for my driving for 25 years with todays prices here. And we have alot higher prices than in the US. Even the brand dealer wouldn't exchange it even for a new car order. Good riddance! Looking at all the massive problems with all the electric cars in Norway, and used car dealers won't exchange them in, I will make my ICE cars go for a very long time...

 

[eljefino]

Just got a new Prius Prime LE last month. After tax rebates, toyota rebates, state rebates, and including the dealer paperwork fee it was $176xx, before state sales taxes. That's cheaper than a new Hyundai Elantra!

Got out of my two well kept 2nd gen prii... the 303k mile one pulled in $1600 and the 277k $2200. Not bad there either.

 

[UncleDave]

Hybrids are a stop-gap solution and once the fuel cell is up and running well they'll be renamed "Edsel" together with the Plug-ins.
Electrics are coming what I don't understand why not using the current infrastructure (gas stations) to supply nitrogen (fuel cell) or some other green fuel. This way there is no range anxiety and the fill up will be done in 10 min instead of 1 hr for 80% charge.

10% -80% is about 20 minutes now.

 

[surfstar]

Just got a new Prius Prime LE last month. After tax rebates, toyota rebates, state rebates, and including the dealer paperwork fee it was $176xx, before state sales taxes. That's cheaper than a new Hyundai Elantra!

Got out of my two well kept 2nd gen prii... the 303k mile one pulled in $1600 and the 277k $2200. Not bad there either.

They are THE most economical new car to own, for anyone who drives average to above average annual miles. Safe, well-featured (finally Android Auto for the '21 LE!!!), and very reliable. Nice score. You can likely trade it in for a new model next year and MAKE money...

 

[meep]

H2 tech gives sustained power from a fuel cell but cant provide surge power. So an H2 car still needs some kind of battery pack for blast-off. Now, if you could plug the solar farm on your roof into the car and feed it a gallon of water every night for it to convert and compress into H2 storage (requiring another battery to harvest the solar from the day), it might pay off, until one of those parts manufactured by the lowest bidder faults. Nope, nothing to go wrong here.

if the costs on fossil fuels ramps up, one thing ill be interested to see is if the easy efficiencies from simply driving smaller cars takes a hold. dont get me wrong, the f150 is my favorite, but part of the reason i prefer it is due to being constantly pushed around by larger vehicles when i drive something smaller here.

 

[avacado11]

Hybrid batteries today have no issue lasting 100k miles and beyond. They aren’t really that expensive to replace compared to full EVs either. There are a few videos on YouTube if people replacing the individual cells in Prius and similar hybrids.

my only issue with majority of modern hybrids is their just as boring as the standard ICE car so you’re really only paying for the efficiency. My local Toyota dealer has a handful of Priuses with pretty decent rebates. 24-25k for a Prius isn’t that bad considering a Camry ICE will run for about the same. ICE equivalent cars don’t necessarily hold any more value, they are just slightly more sought after for other reasons not related to the engine.

 

[PandaBear]

Depends on which one.

I know most Prius got pretty good residual which translate to trade in. Others like the newer Honda Insight, BMW i3 REX, likely not doing so well due to their reputation not being as good as Prius (the most reliable gas car Toyota built).

 

[PandaBear]

Hydrogen powered technology might have a place... somewhere... but I'm not sure where. I've been reading about it for 30 years now, guessing it's been around for longer. It's almost in the league of perpetual motion machines, really: where do you get the hydrogen, and how do you make it energy dense enough to make it useful? The explosive side of things, that used to worry me, but these days I'm not sure that energy-dense batteries aren't too far from that level of danger--and let's be real, you get a vehicle with 15-35 gallons of gasoline underneath you, and just exactly what is that in terms of safety? But yes, compressing it, then pumping it into vehicles, no small hurdles there.

Personally I consider H2 a (lousy) battery technology. I'm shocked whenever someone is working on it, again.

Pretty much only Japan. They need an excuse for a nuclear reactor that can do chemical hydrogen generation, also an excuse to do a nuclear program for an eventual weapon program if they ever decided to join the club.

The former argument of hydrogen is it is cheaper to use fuel cell than battery. Today's battery is so much cheaper, it render Hydrogen fuel cell for cars obsolete.

 

[wag123]

Thre is no way I'll ever put a penny into hybrid technology! Those who do will be left with a hunk of metal that nobody wants as soon as fuel cell comes into its own.

IMO, hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles will never become commercially viable on a large scale for a number of reasons already mentioned. That is why Toyota (and others) are working so furiously to develop gasoline fuel cells. They are not there yet, but they have already developed Propane and CNG fuel cells so these may be the next fuel cell powered vehicles that you will see. The problem with hydrocarbon powered fuel cells is that they are not zero greenhouse gas emission devices, yet.
In the mean time, several auto manufacturers are deep into the development of solid state batteries. This is only a few years off and will be a game changer for both EVs and Hybrids.

 

[Pelican]

IMO, hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles will never become commercially viable on a large scale for a number of reasons already mentioned. That is why Toyota (and others) are working so furiously to develop gasoline fuel cells. They are not there yet, but they have already developed Propane and CNG fuel cells so these may be the next fuel cell powered vehicles that you will see. The problem with hydrocarbon powered fuel cells is that they are not zero greenhouse gas emission devices, yet.
In the mean time, several auto manufacturers are deep into the development of solid state batteries. This is only a few years off and will be a game changer for both EVs and Hybrids.

Toyota has had already the Mirai, which is a hydrogen fuel cell, for a good number of years in California.
The reason for hydrogen is the ready availability and the "Green" label, I'm not sure I see a gasoline engine charging an electric one as being politically viable.

 

[wag123]

Toyota has had already the Mirai, which is a hydrogen fuel cell, for a good number of years in California.
The reason for hydrogen is the ready availability and the "Green" label, I'm not sure I see a gasoline engine charging an electric one as being politically viable.

I knew that, which is why I stated "commercially viable on a large scale", which is something the Mirai is not. The Mirai is a good test bed and stepping stone to manufacturing a viable mass market fuel cell powered EV in the future once they can get past the infrastructure problem presented by the use of hydrogen.
I wasn't talking about a "gasoline engine charging an electric one", we have that now with the Hybrids. I was talking about fuel cell EVs where the fuel cell uses gasoline to operate. Whenever a gasoline (or other hydrocarbon fuel such as propane or CNG) powered fuel cell EV can be engineered to produce zero (or very near zero) greenhouse gas emissions, if possible, they will be instantly politically (and commercially) viable.

 

[JeffKeryk]

The Mirai California experiment has been a miserable failure. I talked to a couple of owners and they did not like them.
Not to mention pretty ugly vehicles.
I believe Toyota is doing a redesign.