So I stopped at a garage sale and the truck (95 f150) would not restart, just a click from the solenoid. So I put the parking brake on, stuck the shifter in neutral, wedged down the clutch and duct taped the ignition to the crank position. Now the output terminal of the solenoid showed 12+ volts, so I went under the truck to see if the hot connection to the starter showed 12 volts. I am looking up at the starter noticing the hot wire is on top and figuring how to reach it and suddenly the truck starts. Well that is fine, it's what I wanted, but now the engine is driving the starter way faster than it was meant to go, so I whip around and start tearing off duct tape. Apparently no harm, but in the future if I am going to do this test, I will be better off to pull the center distributor wire out first. As it turned out the connection for the wire off the solenoid to the battery was very corroded and not all that tight, cleaned it up and it's starting fine.
How not to check starter
- Thread starter TallPaul
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whoa.. well, it worked.
Reminds me of an incident that happened to me once back in the 90s. I was driving the '66 as a daily driver, still with the original 383 instead of the current 440, and had just put a parts-store starter on it a few weeks before (big red warning lights should be flashing...). Anyway, it had been working fine. Was at work VERY late one night (~midnight or 1 AM) and went out to go home. Turned the key and the car fired right up.... and the starter wouldn't disengage. Turned off the key, and the starter kept right on spinning the engine... cranking, cranking, cranking. Banged on the firewall starter relay- no change. By now, the battery cables are getting REALLY hot. By the time I rummaged the trunk for the first wrench I could find, the insulation was bubbling on the battery cables, and the starter was still cranking. I managed to loosen the clamp on the neg. cable and pulled it off.... merciful silence. After about 10 seconds, I hear a "clunk!" from the starter as the solenoid finally let go. So I cautiously re-connected the negative battery cable... good, no starter noises. Squinted my eyes closed, turned the key and it fired right up again, and this time the starter disengaged. Drove straight home and took the original starter down to a local rebuilder the very next day.
I suppose a starter could jam on anyone, but it seems to be a rare occurance. That part's store starter must have been junk. But why did the solenoid stay locked on? Was the starter backfeeding to keep it engaged?
I wondered if the starter running way too fast could generate enough backflow current to destroy something like the voltage regulator or alternator.
I wondered if the starter running way too fast could generate enough backflow current to destroy something like the voltage regulator or alternator.
Ugh.
Next time just rap on the starter with something solid. Bad connection, sticky brush, you never know what you might "fix" for that one last start.
This honest to goodness worked for me with my ranger, wife calls me, won't start, come get me, I go over with some vise grips and give the starter a love tap, 30 seconds was all it took. You'd think she'd have been impressed but she was still
Next time just rap on the starter with something solid. Bad connection, sticky brush, you never know what you might "fix" for that one last start.
This honest to goodness worked for me with my ranger, wife calls me, won't start, come get me, I go over with some vise grips and give the starter a love tap, 30 seconds was all it took. You'd think she'd have been impressed but she was still
Over running like this is normal starting procedure.
[For many women I see]
There is a rudimentary over run protection in the starter gearing. I'd keep an eye/ear on it, but you probably will be OK.
[For many women I see]
There is a rudimentary over run protection in the starter gearing. I'd keep an eye/ear on it, but you probably will be OK.
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
I suppose a starter could jam on anyone, but it seems to be a rare occurance. That part's store starter must have been junk. But why did the solenoid stay locked on? Was the starter backfeeding to keep it engaged?
I wondered if the starter running way too fast could generate enough backflow current to destroy something like the voltage regulator or alternator.
Yes, it was complete junk. Especially after that event... I pulled the end cover off and it had started to throw solder off the armature! It probably had another 15 seconds left before it would have quit completely. I'm lucky it had enough wires still left attached to start the engine one last time to get me home.
The solenoid stayed locked because it simply jammed mechanically. The parts were poorly fit, and the housing had obviously been sand-blasted so the solenoid bore wasn't true anymore.
I don't think it would back-feed. When the engine was running, the starter wasn't being driven too fast, the O/R clutch was just overrunning and the pinion was screaming at high speed, but the armature was free-running. All the heat damage was from after I shut the engine off (my thinking was that doing this wouldprevent tearing up the ring gear in case the pinion seized- I'd rather ruin the starter than the ring gear and have to drop the transmission) After I turned the key back to "off, the starter cranked the engine for about 4-5 minutes nonstop while I fumbled with tools in the dark.
I suppose a starter could jam on anyone, but it seems to be a rare occurance. That part's store starter must have been junk. But why did the solenoid stay locked on? Was the starter backfeeding to keep it engaged?
I wondered if the starter running way too fast could generate enough backflow current to destroy something like the voltage regulator or alternator.
Yes, it was complete junk. Especially after that event... I pulled the end cover off and it had started to throw solder off the armature! It probably had another 15 seconds left before it would have quit completely. I'm lucky it had enough wires still left attached to start the engine one last time to get me home.
The solenoid stayed locked because it simply jammed mechanically. The parts were poorly fit, and the housing had obviously been sand-blasted so the solenoid bore wasn't true anymore.
I don't think it would back-feed. When the engine was running, the starter wasn't being driven too fast, the O/R clutch was just overrunning and the pinion was screaming at high speed, but the armature was free-running. All the heat damage was from after I shut the engine off (my thinking was that doing this wouldprevent tearing up the ring gear in case the pinion seized- I'd rather ruin the starter than the ring gear and have to drop the transmission) After I turned the key back to "off, the starter cranked the engine for about 4-5 minutes nonstop while I fumbled with tools in the dark.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Ugh.
Next time just rap on the starter with something solid. Bad connection, sticky brush, you never know what you might "fix" for that one last start.
This honest to goodness worked for me with my ranger, wife calls me, won't start, come get me, I go over with some vise grips and give the starter a love tap, 30 seconds was all it took. You'd think she'd have been impressed but she was still
Wishing that worked for me on Monday. Step daughter calls up saying the Camry will not start and would I come with jumper cables.
So I come with jumper cables and the I turn the key, but nothing happens with respect to the starter. Lights are good and bright and don't dim when the key is turned to the start position.
So I try the "whack a starter" technique and no-go.
Yesterday afternoon, after diagnosing it to a suspect starter, I pull and replace the starter in the parking lot of the local library.
Thank goodness for the $40 off $100 or more purchase at Advance Auto. I ordered the starter, took the old one to test, it was bad, produced my order confirmation, asked the counterman to test the new one, and I'm on my way.
From removal of the old starter, round trip to the parts store, and replacement of the new was 90 minutes.
I had to remove the battery and the air cleaner box to get it out, but it was pretty easy.
I was hoping the "whack a starter" method would allow me to get the car home so I wasn't playing parking lot mechanic. But alas, it was a nice day, and the starter is accessible from the top of the car, so no problem.
Only the second repair on this 220K mile 2002 Camry in 8 years.
Ugh.
Next time just rap on the starter with something solid. Bad connection, sticky brush, you never know what you might "fix" for that one last start.
This honest to goodness worked for me with my ranger, wife calls me, won't start, come get me, I go over with some vise grips and give the starter a love tap, 30 seconds was all it took. You'd think she'd have been impressed but she was still
Wishing that worked for me on Monday. Step daughter calls up saying the Camry will not start and would I come with jumper cables.
So I come with jumper cables and the I turn the key, but nothing happens with respect to the starter. Lights are good and bright and don't dim when the key is turned to the start position.
So I try the "whack a starter" technique and no-go.
Yesterday afternoon, after diagnosing it to a suspect starter, I pull and replace the starter in the parking lot of the local library.
Thank goodness for the $40 off $100 or more purchase at Advance Auto. I ordered the starter, took the old one to test, it was bad, produced my order confirmation, asked the counterman to test the new one, and I'm on my way.
From removal of the old starter, round trip to the parts store, and replacement of the new was 90 minutes.
I had to remove the battery and the air cleaner box to get it out, but it was pretty easy.
I was hoping the "whack a starter" method would allow me to get the car home so I wasn't playing parking lot mechanic. But alas, it was a nice day, and the starter is accessible from the top of the car, so no problem.
Only the second repair on this 220K mile 2002 Camry in 8 years.
Careful with whacking permanant magnet field starters. Break the magnets and it can lock up, and will cost more to rebuild.
If the field housing (cylindrical portion of the motor) is smooth and has no screws, it likely has permanant magnets.
If the field housing (cylindrical portion of the motor) is smooth and has no screws, it likely has permanant magnets.
TP - Some car savvy just saved you towing, outgageous parts costs, and labor.
Look at it this way - you just made $500+!
Look at it this way - you just made $500+!
Thanks mechtech, I actually called Murrays (now some other name) and got a parts guy who was knowledgeble to advise me on this test procedure.
Oh, but maybe i did hurt the starter or 172,000 miles has done it in as it is barely cranking the engine now and I am afraid it will not start some day, perhaps the windings were hurt enought to make it weak? Battery tests around 12.4 volts after sitting overnight, 4 years on a 92 month Autozone yellow/orange top battery.
More investigation is in order.
Oh, but maybe i did hurt the starter or 172,000 miles has done it in as it is barely cranking the engine now and I am afraid it will not start some day, perhaps the windings were hurt enought to make it weak? Battery tests around 12.4 volts after sitting overnight, 4 years on a 92 month Autozone yellow/orange top battery.
More investigation is in order.
Wouldn't start when I left work today. Tried jump, no help. Same symptom, just the solenoid click. Banging starter did not help. Got home because of slight slope on floor in parking structure and fairly empty, I pushed it a couple car spaces with ignition on, jumped in threw in first and popped clutch and was on my way. Now I have a new starter and it starts very nicely. Mech said that the little I had it run off the engine shouldn't have killed it, but the 172,000 miles of starting sure could have.
How about this? Could be alot worse! Really scary stuff here!
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Where can I pick up a quality battery quick disconnect switch?
Think one that mounts on the battery terminal is best.
Think one that mounts on the battery terminal is best.
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Wouldn't start when I left work today. Tried jump, no help. Same symptom, just the solenoid click. Banging starter did not help. Got home because of slight slope on floor in parking structure and fairly empty, I pushed it a couple car spaces with ignition on, jumped in threw in first and popped clutch and was on my way. Now I have a new starter and it starts very nicely. Mech said that the little I had it run off the engine shouldn't have killed it, but the 172,000 miles of starting sure could have.
If the starter was ever spinning while the engine was running there is a chance a tooth, or teeth on the flywheel broke off. It that's the case the starter will bind up if these teeth are in alignment when the starter engages and you will get all the symptons of a bad starter/solenoid. Pull the starter or inspection plate, and check the flywheel for busted teeth. Just a hunch.
Many times with a stick shift a vehicle will start when rolling it and popping the clutch when teeth are broken or missing.
Wouldn't start when I left work today. Tried jump, no help. Same symptom, just the solenoid click. Banging starter did not help. Got home because of slight slope on floor in parking structure and fairly empty, I pushed it a couple car spaces with ignition on, jumped in threw in first and popped clutch and was on my way. Now I have a new starter and it starts very nicely. Mech said that the little I had it run off the engine shouldn't have killed it, but the 172,000 miles of starting sure could have.
If the starter was ever spinning while the engine was running there is a chance a tooth, or teeth on the flywheel broke off. It that's the case the starter will bind up if these teeth are in alignment when the starter engages and you will get all the symptons of a bad starter/solenoid. Pull the starter or inspection plate, and check the flywheel for busted teeth. Just a hunch.
Many times with a stick shift a vehicle will start when rolling it and popping the clutch when teeth are broken or missing.
I doubt any teeth broke off and would hope the shop would have inspected that possibility and/or at least bench tested the starter. Missing flywheel teeth would possibly result in the starter mis-engaging and jamming against one of the teeth adjacent to the gap, but more likely the starter would simply spin and not be engaged. If that happens I can put it in gear and push it a little to get past the broken tooth(teeth). A stick shift vehicle should always push start regardless of broken teeth on teh flywheel.
I don't have much faith in most shops unfortunately, so checking a flywheel all 360* is something I doubt they'll do.
Yes a stick should always start with a push no matter what, that's assuming everything else with the engine and electrical system is good.
I've seen first hand starters jam up due to broken teeth on a flywheel. Although not very common it is more common than most people think, and is many times taken for granted. That's why I threw the suggestion out there.
Yes a stick should always start with a push no matter what, that's assuming everything else with the engine and electrical system is good.
I've seen first hand starters jam up due to broken teeth on a flywheel. Although not very common it is more common than most people think, and is many times taken for granted. That's why I threw the suggestion out there.
The new cars with security chips in keys don't always roll start. Or you might need to be coordinated and twist the non-op key when you're popping the clutch.
Of course with a flywheel problem manually turning the motor over will get it to a start-able spot. I had an automatic work truck where I had to yank the fan belt to get it past a bad tooth.
If one had long enough leads on their timing light they could probably inspect most of the flywheel very quickly by idling it with the cover off. Or bring a handheld camera flash down there and strobe it a bunch of random times.
Of course with a flywheel problem manually turning the motor over will get it to a start-able spot. I had an automatic work truck where I had to yank the fan belt to get it past a bad tooth.
If one had long enough leads on their timing light they could probably inspect most of the flywheel very quickly by idling it with the cover off. Or bring a handheld camera flash down there and strobe it a bunch of random times.
***** on new cars with security chips. I'll just have to drive oldies that have been well maintained or restored. I don't want any of this new fangled ****.
Yeah, if starter jams in flywheel, put it in gear and rock it best you can may unjam.
I just LOVED my two 60s cars I had as a kid. Open the hood and there were not many wires or other junk, just the essentials. Easy to get at stuff. Nowadays, the engine bay is so jam packed you are hard pressed to find anything let alone work on it.
Yeah, if starter jams in flywheel, put it in gear and rock it best you can may unjam.
I just LOVED my two 60s cars I had as a kid. Open the hood and there were not many wires or other junk, just the essentials. Easy to get at stuff. Nowadays, the engine bay is so jam packed you are hard pressed to find anything let alone work on it.
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
perhaps the windings were hurt enought to make it weak?
The first thing to go is usually the solder where the winding attaches to the commutator. That makes for a "dead spot" on the commutator... and when its absolutely the LEAST convenient the starter will be sitting right on that dead spot when you try to crank it some day... :-/
perhaps the windings were hurt enought to make it weak?
The first thing to go is usually the solder where the winding attaches to the commutator. That makes for a "dead spot" on the commutator... and when its absolutely the LEAST convenient the starter will be sitting right on that dead spot when you try to crank it some day... :-/
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