How much esters are too much for use w/Rx

[doyall]

Still hunting for a "good" dino oil to do the rinse after the Rx treatment on my (sorry to talk about it again) motorcycle. (BTW, also have Rx in my lawnmower, boat and soon to be in my truck. I pray it doesn't do any harm.) It has already been established that one w/o synthetic esters needs to be used, but it has also been suggested by a highly respected source that esters included for miscibility were OK. Would like to use Castrol High Mileage 20w50 in the rinse but got the MSDS and found:

quote:

---

Ingredients - Multi-functional additive mixture composed of organo-metallic compounds, typically containing [ZDDP], CARBOXYLIC ESTERS (emphasis added), polyolefins and polyolefin amide alkeneamines 5 - 10 %

---

quote:

---

Toxic Release Inventory Chemical - Zinc compounds, 1.5% (wt.) max.

---

So, this oil could have anywhere from 3.5% to 8.5% esters and/or polyolefins. Anybody care to take a stab at whether these are for miscibility or are at a level that would disqualify it for use in the Rx rinse.

[ September 08, 2003, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: doyall ]

 

[MolaKule]

"CARBOXYLIC ESTERS (emphasis added), polyolefins and polyolefin amide alkeneamines 5 - 10 %"

I still think you're splitting hairs. As I mentioned to another poster, take Exxon Superflo or Chevron Supreme or some other mostly dino and go with it.

I think that when the ester content of the base is 25% or above then the cleaning esters have to "time share" (for lack of a better phrase) with the lubricating esters. And here, I am referring to one of the esters such as TMP, TME, Di-PE, PE (and other polyol esters) and di-esters. Bear in mind, ARX will still work with even a very high percentage synthetic such as Redline; it just takes longer.

If you look at the above listing, the carbolxylic esters are only a certain percentage of the 5-10%, which means the ester content (the ester used for miscibility), is less than 5%.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000056#000000

[ September 08, 2003, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[doyall]

quote:

---

ester content of the base is 25%

---

Something firm ... exactly what I was looking for! Thanks MoleKule.

 

[Rick20]

ARX will work with all motor oils. In full synthetics with ester, diester, triester bases, the cleaning takes longer. Its not that it will not work. I do suggest that you swap to a dino oil for stopping or slowing a seal leak however, after the ARX treatment. Run the dino by itself for an oil change, then run anything you like.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Rick20 exactly what is it about conventional oil that makes it better for restoring seals. I do not doubt Franks recomendation just trying to understand what makes dino work for this but not synthetic??

Thanks!!

 

[Rick20]

John,
I wish I could be more scientific and offer a chemical answer that is absolute, but I will share my thoughts.

First of all nothing can help a ripped or torn seal, except replacement. And of course we are talking about seals around rotating shafts, or journals. Contaminants, dirt, debris, whatever, seems to find a way to lodge between the seal and the shaft, to create the leak. Cleaning the foreign material out of the seal area is only half the battle.The seal may be slightly disformed and continue to leak after cleaning.The second half of the fight is to get that seal to reconform to shaft. It is my experience in auto applications and more noticeably in printing equipment that dino oils work better. Anything that swells the seal is a very temporary fix, and ultimately make the seal worse in the very near future. Actually having the seal shrink down on the shaft would be more beneficial. Motor oils don't have a large impact either way. However I believe that running the dino helps to stiffen the seal just enough to hopefully bring back its original memory. Whereas full synthetics don't or just keep the seal material too limp to recreate an effective seal. I have witnessed many applications in Auto applications where running a fill of dino has worked well. By well, geatly minimizing the leak or stopping it. I have never witnessed this with a full synthetic. I can say that I have seen the leak once stopped or minimized maintain itself after switching back to a full synthetic. Hope this is helpful.

 

[MolaKule]

If I may, from a chemistry standpoint, give my scenario on why dino oils are better for cleaning and seal conditioning with ARX.

1. FACT: PAO's are virtually non-miscible by themselves and have almost zero seal swell ability. Without some esters to dissolve the additives and force mixing, PAO's would be virtually useless except for use in Air Conditioning compressors.
2. Most full synthetics these days, with the exception of Redline, have such a high level of PAO's that even the base esters or miscibility esters have little effect on seal swelling and conditioning. Natural cleaning esters have to compete with both the PAO and what little base esters there are to get to the seals.
3. Mineral oils have a natural seal swell capability and include high levels of sulfur (except for the Group III) oils. Most elastomer materials (synthetic rubbers and nitriles), which make up seals, have high levels of sulfur and ester molecules. The sulfur atoms combine with the esters to not only clean the seals, but also replace or "supplant" sulfur and ester atoms lost to heat and mechanical wear. This doesn't mean, however, that something like ARX or a nitrile additive can replace all the elastomer molecules lost to wear, heat, and time, but they can invade the elastomer and condition it so it seals a bit "better," reducing or even eliminating leaks.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Thanks Guys !!!

 

[Rick20]

MoleKule,

Thanks for the input. Your post are so well written, I have to ask. Do you have a major in English as well?

Question: Do you feel that cleaning has to occur before a dino oil can help a failing seal? And secondly, do you not feel that a group III will help the seal after cleaning? And lastly, beyond group III, ultra refined mineral oils that are not self contaminating, which rival synthetics, to some extent, do you not feel that these oils will be effective in seal rejeuvination, after cleaning?

 

[MolaKule]

"Thanks for the input. Your post are so well written, I have to ask. Do you have a major in English as well?"

No, maybe I should have!?!

"Question: Do you feel that cleaning has to occur before a dino oil can help a failing seal?"

I think the esters will mix with the oil and clean and condition at the same time. The more its used, the better the cleaning and seal conditioning.

"And secondly, do you not feel that a group III will help the seal after cleaning?"

It's a matter of degree. The lower the base oil Group, the quicker and more active the cleaning. With Group III and IV oils (by themselves), I think you see the lesser activity.

"And lastly, beyond group III, ultra refined mineral oils that are not self contaminating, which rival synthetics, to some extent, do you not feel that these oils will be effective in seal rejeuvination, after cleaning?"

See above. Again, a matter of degree.