How come the USA is underrated?

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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
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It is a different type of problem when you can feed one to obesity and malnutrition with only $6 a day, while you cannot afford to provide yourself what is considered poverty line in 2010 standard, like a roof over your head, bathroom, medication, K12 education, etc. I think the amount of people that are not hungry but are homeless (or marginally homeless like squatting at public area), or are rejected life supporting medication due to afford-ability are a much bigger problem.


I think that Tempest's main theme is "what's the problem?". That's if I'm reading between the lines accurately. I mean, he puts up a show, but I think he just doesn't see these issues as something to be dealt with. They may make interesting reading, but ...so
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Basically he doesn't see it as his problem, nor society's ..nor something to be corrected. He certainly doesn't want to pay for it either directly or via proxy.

Nothing wrong with that view, per se~. It appears dispassionate ..and I believe in his case that it surely is ..to the point of visceral and punative contempt, but the basic concept is not too flawed. "Not my problem"
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I on the other hand tend to look at things as a package and realize that I will be coping with the fall out of anything and everything and that I cannot cope with it well by myself.

Those things would also fall into the "my problem" category under "Natural Law".
You seem to forget that a large portion of the unemployed population does not want to work and will not work no matter what opportunitities are available.
 
OK EVERYONE STEP BACK!!!!!!

This thread went Charlie Rangel real fast. Take a deep breath and let truth invade the topic.
 
Originally Posted By: silverrat
I think it's a good thing that I feel safe enough were I live that I don't feel the need to have a gun. And that regardless of my financial status I can get major medical treatment without ruining my financial future.

My father spent 16 months in the hospital for when he had cancer. 6 surgical procedures followed by radiation treatments, skin grafts and got a colostomy. It was all taken care of by OHIP and I'm very thankful to have been born in Canada.


This is possibly one of the most sickening things I have ever read. You deal with our "diversity" and then get back to me on the real world issues.

When will Canada help out with our "inner city" problems and all of the "guest workers"?
Yeah, I figured as much.
 
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Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: mopar_monkey
Originally Posted By: StevieC
You can hunt in Canada and own guns for sporting events... You just can't carry it around in public or conceal it.

You can also be charged using it in self-defense in some cases.

that's very sad, if someone is a threat to you or your family you should be able to use what ever means necessary to defend your self, and the people that have concealed weapons permits and carry a concealed weapon are not the ones using them for purposes of crime, if they aren't going to obey laws againest robbing and murder then they sure aren't going to obey a law keeping them from carrying a weapon, the best way to combat this is to have more people legally carrying weapons, maybe the criminals would think twice if there was a good chance the victim they are trying to rob had a gun.


The only times I have ever heard of someone being charged in Canada using a firearm in self defense (and it's rare enough that it makes news, and generates controversy) are when the person defending themselves was violating a firearm law. Hypothetically, if I was walking down the street with a concealed firearm (a big no-no here) and was mugged by a kid armed with a knife and I shot him, I'd expect to have the book thrown at me. Also, if I shot an intruder before or instead of calling Big Brother for help and waiting 10 minutes for them arrive, and it came to pass that I kept a *loaded* weapon in an unlocked vessel (again, a big no-no here) then I'd likely be charged.

It's not as Orwellian as it's made out to be on Fox News, but our laws are comparatively restrictive and probably more a detriment to an individual's personal safety than a benefit to society's.


Amen
 
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You seem to forget that a large portion of the unemployed population does not want to work and will not work no matter what opportunitities are available.


You seem to forget that our economy operates on an ideal where the funny fuzzy numbers come in @ 5-6% unemployment. The real number is much higher.

..but my comments were not pointed at employment ..just a general disposition toward the members of the society.

It would be more convenient if there was a new Australia where you could just cart off the unneeded/unwanted to and leave only enough to be milked and allow the cream to float to the top.

When I ran a honey dipper ..we were allowed about 5% "floats" in our sewerage that we took to the municipal plant.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
It would be more convenient if there was a new Australia where you could just cart off the unneeded/unwanted to and leave only enough to be milked and allow the cream to float to the top.


I have been saying this for a long time, improving efficiency in a micro economy scale relies on rejecting the waste and eliminate inefficiency. What can the society do in general to scale this successful micro economic model up? We have to kick people out of the country, kill them, let them deteriorate into criminals or the parasites of the society, or have to tolerate paying off the inefficiency if no one wants to utilize them.

Most of the capitalism proponents ignore these points when they make their argument, claiming that they will go away when the world gets efficient enough, but reality is they are just put aside and let someone else pay for the cost (whether the people living in the neighborhood that tolerates the crime, or the people who pay for the welfare programs) one way or the other.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
It would be more convenient if there was a new Australia where you could just cart off the unneeded/unwanted to and leave only enough to be milked and allow the cream to float to the top.


I have been saying this for a long time, improving efficiency in a micro economy scale relies on rejecting the waste and eliminate inefficiency. What can the society do in general to scale this successful micro economic model up? We have to kick people out of the country, kill them, let them deteriorate into criminals or the parasites of the society, or have to tolerate paying off the inefficiency if no one wants to utilize them.

Most of the capitalism proponents ignore these points when they make their argument, claiming that they will go away when the world gets efficient enough, but reality is they are just put aside and let someone else pay for the cost (whether the people living in the neighborhood that tolerates the crime, or the people who pay for the welfare programs) one way or the other.


Of course. I've often suggested to some that they should just kill them. It would make things so much easier.

They're worthless trash anyway at that point, aren't they? Maybe a euthanasia chamber that you just report to upon unfunded retirement or disability ..or just getting a lay off notice.

I think we have had this sorta thing, though. I think they called it war. It thins the herd pretty well and kicks up business a good bit too with non-durable consumption.
 
Quote:
Most of the capitalism proponents ignore these points when they make their argument, claiming that they will go away when the world gets efficient enough, but reality is they are just put aside and let someone else pay for the cost (whether the people living in the neighborhood that tolerates the crime, or the people who pay for the welfare programs) one way or the other.

And yet, with all the trillions that have been transferred, the problem hasn't gone away, and is actually worse in certain areas.
But, when welfare was cut in the 90's, child poverty went down and families were better off. That reality doesn't fit with your post.

It's amazing that some people in this country think others are just "leftovers" to be exiled or eliminated, rather than being allowed to improve themselves and their situation. Of course if one has a communal view of things....
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
If the system has an "optimum" rate of involuntary unemployment that is considerably higher than zero in order to ensure that the system functions at it's highest efficiency, then the system needs to ensure that that involuntary pool of potential workers is kept healthy and nourished for when they get their turn.

After all, if the occasional employed person doesn't return to the unemployed pool every now and then, people will forget how grateful they have to be to the system that they aren't one of the 5-7%.

How does unemployment increase efficiency?
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


Of course. I've often suggested to some that they should just kill them. It would make things so much easier.

They're worthless trash anyway at that point, aren't they? Maybe a euthanasia chamber that you just report to upon unfunded retirement or disability ..or just getting a lay off notice.

Ah, there is your answer to the too high "efficiency" problem. Thanks for clarifying.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
If the system has an "optimum" rate of involuntary unemployment that is considerably higher than zero in order to ensure that the system functions at it's highest efficiency, then the system needs to ensure that that involuntary pool of potential workers is kept healthy and nourished for when they get their turn.

After all, if the occasional employed person doesn't return to the unemployed pool every now and then, people will forget how grateful they have to be to the system that they aren't one of the 5-7%.

How does unemployment increase efficiency?


Below a certain rate of unemployment you're in an inflationary environment, above ..a recession. The ideal is actually a very narrow span. The optimal is (adjust for the fuzzy numerology of the moment) is somewhere around 5%.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


Of course. I've often suggested to some that they should just kill them. It would make things so much easier.

They're worthless trash anyway at that point, aren't they? Maybe a euthanasia chamber that you just report to upon unfunded retirement or disability ..or just getting a lay off notice.

Ah, there is your answer to the too high "efficiency" problem. Thanks for clarifying.


I've suggest it for YOU. That's how you appear to regard the unneeded of the society. It would be much easier if you could just shoot them. You could then dispense with the troublesome chains of "Rule of Law" to just legislate them out of the society.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
If the system has an "optimum" rate of involuntary unemployment that is considerably higher than zero in order to ensure that the system functions at it's highest efficiency, then the system needs to ensure that that involuntary pool of potential workers is kept healthy and nourished for when they get their turn.

After all, if the occasional employed person doesn't return to the unemployed pool every now and then, people will forget how grateful they have to be to the system that they aren't one of the 5-7%.

How does unemployment increase efficiency?


Sorry, I was referring to YOUR efficiency rather than my engineering type efficiency, so you missed the point.

A certain unemployment rate is required to minimise labour costs (you state that efficient is least cost).

Lower unemployment, wages rise, the system (Private bank) steps in to pull money out of the system to drive unemployment back up, and wages down.
 
As far as efficiency goes, too bad the people at the top aren't as efficient as the people at the middle and bottom. That would lower cost and solve a lot of problems.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
And yet, with all the trillions that have been transferred, the problem hasn't gone away, and is actually worse in certain areas.
But, when welfare was cut in the 90's, child poverty went down and families were better off. That reality doesn't fit with your post.

It's amazing that some people in this country think others are just "leftovers" to be exiled or eliminated, rather than being allowed to improve themselves and their situation. Of course if one has a communal view of things....


The reality is, between late 80s to early 90s, the economy stalled due to an economic bubble bursting, and in the mid to late 90s, another bubble (Internet and high tech) start brewing.

The "leftovers" and "exiles, eliminate" part of my comment are sarcasm in case you haven't notice by now. My previous posts have been stressing that I share most of your view except I don't have the heart to commit to it. Your view on the other hand, has been in line with Gary's suggestion that there's no problem, and people who fell off the table are statistically non existence, or do not exist on average, because child poverty went down and families are better off. Your solution is to leave them alone and let some of them sink and those who have the heart (like non profits) to take care of them, rather than factoring them into the actual cost of economic and political decision.

Who's the heartless one here?
 
Originally Posted By: milwaukee
Originally Posted By: silverrat
I think it's a good thing that I feel safe enough were I live that I don't feel the need to have a gun. And that regardless of my financial status I can get major medical treatment without ruining my financial future.

My father spent 16 months in the hospital for when he had cancer. 6 surgical procedures followed by radiation treatments, skin grafts and got a colostomy. It was all taken care of by OHIP and I'm very thankful to have been born in Canada.


This is possibly one of the most sickening things I have ever read. You deal with our "diversity" and then get back to me on the real world issues.


We'll see your "diversity" and raise you some!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population ... From the article:

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Immigrants as percentage of national population:

USA - 12.81%
Canada - 18.76%

Looks like we have about 1 1/2 times as many real world issues?
 
But the USA has a large ~10% population of undocumented immigrants. And a ~15% of African Americans, which has a lot of issues with crime, poverty etc. I think Canada does a better job of documenting immigrants so the numbers are skewed.
 
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Who's the heartless one here?

So you are saying that having people dependent on government for their daily sustenance is compassionate?
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But the USA has a large ~10% population of undocumented immigrants. And a ~15% of African Americans, which has a lot of issues with crime, poverty etc. I think Canada does a better job of documenting immigrants so the numbers are skewed.


Your stats are wrong. There are approx 12 million undocumented in the US. With a US Pop of over 309 million, that's more like 4%. Canada has a high estimate of 120,000 illegals from a population of 34 million. Not much of a difference in ratio.
 
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