House flooded then Tesla burns it to the ground.

[demarpaint]

Don't expect common sense here. This section of the site has become a lightning rod for idiots.

Amen.

 

[Fair enough]

Not for those of us who don’t live in or near cities it won’t. In10 years we still won’t have the infrastructure or kWh capacity.

You may be surprised what the high voltage lines coming in can handle. So your lights dim a little, the stores are getting people in with nothing to do for a couple hours or more. And if no one comes in to charge, your lights stay bright.

 

[Ws6]

And as always, no one wants to wait hours to recharge these things on a cross country trip. Especially when it takes minutes to refuel with ICE.

This is a wall EV's will continue to hit for decades to cocome.

Hours? For what? 10 to 20 minutes is a charge to 80%, can take 20-25min to hit mid 90s if you want.

 

[Ws6]

That’s very possible. To be honest I don’t know if Tesla batteries are vented. I don’t know where it would be. That said we have an example here that the water level barely hit the battery and it burned. That happened for a reason.

I have a low opinion of Tesla quality and QC. Even Porsche has issues with sealing their batteries. So far, Kia, Volvo, Toyota, and others don't have this issue. Basically, buy an EV from a country that manufactures high quality electronics and be happy.

 

[billt460]

Charging an EV for cross country driving requires a completely different strategy. You never "fill up" except at night (when you're sitting in your hotel room with a cold one). You only charge enough to get to the next convenient charging station.....

It would be the same as taking a gas car on a cross country trip, but only putting in 1/4 tankfull at a time. Until I was ready to stop for the night. Then go ahead and fill up. So I would be stopping for gas 4 times as much.

And they wonder why these things comprise less than 2% of the cars on the road today.

 

[billt460]

A miniature EV.... No salt required.

 

[Owen Lucas]

I am planning on installing two Tesla Powerwalls in my basement for backup power. But I am not in a flood prone area and even if a pipe broke, it is impossible for the basement to flood.

How much are 2 Powerwalls going to set you back? If you don't mind me asking.

 

[ecotourist]

It would be the same as taking a gas car on a cross country trip, but only putting in 1/4 tankfull at a time. Until I was ready to stop for the night. Then go ahead and fill up. So I would be stopping for gas 4 times as much.

And they wonder why these things comprise less than 2% of the cars on the road today.

Suppose you could charge an EV from 10 to 70% in say 15 minutes. Or you could charge from 10 all the way to 100% in say 60 minutes. Are you really going to wait 45 minutes extra to get that last 30%? The rate at which you can actually charge drops off dramatically as the battery is getting close to full.

So you only charge as much as you need to reach your next planned charging station - which might be 2 1/2 hours away. If you charged to 100% you could reach the one after that which is 3 hours away. So getting that last 30% cost you 45 minutes, and then later saved you 5 or 10 minutes. That's no bargain.

As I said the strategy for cross country driving with an EV is different. You don't read about it somewhere, you learn by doing it.

Suppose you could put in half a tank of gasoline in 5 minutes, but getting a full tank would take 35 minutes. Most people would go with half a tank. Or they'd get a bigger tank (which is what they do with a long range EV).

 

[billt460]

Suppose you could charge an EV from 10 to 70% in say 15 minutes. Or you could charge from 10 all the way to 100% in say 60 minutes. Are you really going to wait 45 minutes extra to get that last 30%? The rate at which you can actually charge drops off dramatically as the battery is getting close to full.

So you only charge as much as you need to reach your next planned charging station - which might be 2 1/2 hours away. If you charged to 100% you could reach the one after that which is 3 hours away. So getting that last 30% cost you 45 minutes, and then later saved you 5 or 10 minutes. That's no bargain.

As I said the strategy for cross country driving with an EV is different. You don't read about it somewhere, you learn by doing it.

Suppose you could put in half a tank of gasoline in 5 minutes, but getting a full tank would take 35 minutes. Most people would go with half a tank. Or they'd get a bigger tank (which is what they do with a long range EV).

No matter how you dissect, and slice and dice all of this, all of this constant stopping becomes a royal pain when traveling long distances. You can't get around the fact there is no way you can match ICE when it comes to distance traveled vs. time required to put juice into a EV compared to gas in a ICE vehicle. There just isn't.

I can pump 15 gallons into a Camry, (or most any other economical vehicle), in 5 minutes or less, and go 500 miles or more. I'm not even going to get into how many service stations there are today on the Interstate Highway System, compared to charging stations.

In another 20 years or so, if they ever get the proper infrastructure in place, along with a way to produce enough electricity to send to them, then there might be an argument for EV's to be used in this manner....

And not take longer than the settlers in covered wagons to cross the country in a reasonable and comparable time frame. Now it's nothing more than fuzzy math, and wishful thinking.

Today most of these things being sold don't charge as fast as they say, or go as far as they say. Add in below zero temperatures in the Winter and they're sunk regardless of what they do.

 

[97prizm]

I guess State Farm can figure that out. They have all of my policies. I'll let their legal teams fight each other.

A few years ago a guy had his Tesla catch fire in the garage and spread to the house. The auto insurance company went after Teslas directly to recoup the financial losses.

 

[k1xv]

How much are 2 Powerwalls going to set you back? If you don't mind me asking.

I am leasing them from the local electric utility, Green Mountain Power. Its a 10 year lease @ $55 a month. Alternatively its a one time payment of $5500. Because my installation is simple, there are no installation costs added.

https://greenmountainpower.com/rebates-programs/home-energy-storage/powerwall/

 

[Torrid]

A few years ago a guy had his Tesla catch fire in the garage and spread to the house. The auto insurance company went after Teslas directly to recoup the financial losses.

As long as I don’t have to do the legwork, works for me.

 

[ecotourist]

No matter how you dissect, and slice and dice all of this, all of this constant stopping becomes a royal pain when traveling long distances. You can't get around the fact there is no way you can match ICE when it comes to distance traveled vs. time required to put juice into a EV compared to gas in a ICE vehicle. There just isn't.

What you say is largely true. A Tesla is not as convenient as an ICE for cross country driving. But I've never had to wait to charge. The chargers (almost) always work. There is no messing with credit cards or chargers being difficult. And the Tesla Nav system is highly supportive. Tesla seems to have the best system (the Supercharger network) for cross country driving. So it's quite possible to do cross country driving with a very basic Tesla.

But where they shine is driving around your home base or for reasonable length commutes - when you can charge at home or at work. They cost much less for maintenance and much less for "fuel". There is no need to ever drive to a service station and spend 5 or 10 minutes "fueling up". They are far better than an ICE in this situation.

I keep my cars for 15 - 20 years so resale value is not a concern, and my Tesla Model 3 SR+ was actually cheaper than the other cars I was considering.

 

[OVERKILL]

I am leasing them from the local electric utility, Green Mountain Power. Its a 10 year lease @ $55 a month. Alternatively its a one time payment of $5500. Because my installation is simple, there are no installation costs added.

https://greenmountainpower.com/rebates-programs/home-energy-storage/powerwall/

What's the economic case on this? Are you getting paid for arbitrage or?

 

[UncleDave]

What's the economic case on this? Are you getting paid for arbitrage or?

Curious to hear his take - but I can tell you what I've seen out here.

There a series of peak sell schemes available paying some pretty good rates, but that obviates you using the power yourself if you only have one.
Some places/utilities restrict grid arbitrage.

A buddy only found out after the fact he couldn't charge his powerwall from the grid as SCE doenst want grid based arbitrage, but they are fine with solar charged arbitrage, but after his own consumption he wasnt making jack.

I haven't seen anything available in cali that screams "buy one" as of yet.

 

[OVERKILL]

Curious to hear his take - but I can tell you what I've seen out here.

There a series of peak sell schemes available paying some pretty good rates, but that obviates you using the power yourself if you only have one.
Some places/utilities restrict grid arbitrage.

A buddy only found out after the fact he couldn't charge his powerwall from the grid as SCE doenst want grid based arbitrage, but they are fine with solar charged arbitrage, but after his own consumption he wants making jack.

I haven't seen anything available in cali that screams "buy one" as of yet.

Yeah, you guys have the highest rates in mainland North America, so I could at least see some sort of case being possible in California, but he's in Vermont, who I thought had reasonable rates

 

[UncleDave]

Yeah, you guys have the highest rates in mainland North America, so I could at least see some sort of case being possible in California, but he's in Vermont, who I thought had reasonable rates

Real curious how it's supposed to work for him outside of just a backup.

 

[k1xv]

What's the economic case on this? Are you getting paid for arbitrage or?

I have lived here for 22 years. While power outages are frequent, they seldom last longer than four hours. The longest has been about 8 hours. By having the Powerwall batteries, there is no interruption, waiting for a generator to start. And, not relying on a generator, I don't have to worry about annual service contracts, paying for propane to fuel it, parts, or the generator not working. And if the power company needs to borrow some power to shave the peak demand on a hot summer day, its OK with me. In my career, I was an electrical engineer, then a lawyer who worked in utility regulation. The future of electric distribution is multiple sources of power generation, such as solar, throughout the geography and distributed storage as well.

 

[Owen Lucas]

I have lived here for 22 years. While power outages are frequent, they seldom last longer than four hours. The longest has been about 8 hours. By having the Powerwall batteries, there is no interruption, waiting for a generator to start. And, not relying on a generator, I don't have to worry about annual service contracts, paying for propane to fuel it, parts, or the generator not working. And if the power company needs to borrow some power to shave the peak demand on a hot summer day, its OK with me. In my career, I was an electrical engineer, then a lawyer who worked in utility regulation. The future of electric distribution is multiple sources of power generation, such as solar, throughout the geography and distributed storage as well.

It helps to see that the Powerwall has the endorsement of an electrical engineer!

 

[OVERKILL]

I have lived here for 22 years. While power outages are frequent, they seldom last longer than four hours. The longest has been about 8 hours. By having the Powerwall batteries, there is no interruption, waiting for a generator to start. And, not relying on a generator, I don't have to worry about annual service contracts, paying for propane to fuel it, parts, or the generator not working. And if the power company needs to borrow some power to shave the peak demand on a hot summer day, its OK with me. In my career, I was an electrical engineer, then a lawyer who worked in utility regulation. The future of electric distribution is multiple sources of power generation, such as solar, throughout the geography and distributed storage as well.

OK, so there's no economic case; you aren't looking for them to "pay for themselves", you are attracted to the idea of a whole-house UPS effectively. That makes sense.

Are they then just charged with grid power then, or do you also have solar?

I'm not convinced DER (what you describe) will be more cost effective (for the ratepayer) than traditional centralized generation. The reason we went to large centralized plants in the first place was that they produced less expensive electricity. This also meant dedicated transmission corridors, which were/are easier to maintain than a massive spider web of transmission, necessary if you have your generation shotgunned all over the place.

Locally, we were powered by numerous small run-of-river hydro-electric stations back when electrification was first starting, this was before Ontario Hydro took over. Most of our power now comes from Darlington (the closest nuclear plant) but we do still get a decent chunk generated locally and it has proved useful when we had a big storm-induced transmission outage a while back where the city was able to island and serve important loads with just the hydro. Of course that was also back when we had a city-owned distribution utility, which we don't anymore, it was taken over by Hydro One, so I suspect that approach wouldn't be taken now.