House addition questions

[supton]

How much grief can the town inspector/board/whatever give one for pursuing a house addition? I'm trying to figure out how much I can disclose vs ask, and not have it bite me in the rear.

I'm 99% sure my house doesn't meet setback rules. But it's existing, so grandfathered. Problem is, if I put on an addition the new part will be just as close to the road as all the other parts. That shouldn't matter, right?

Now the reason for the addition is to buttress a wall that is moving. I kinda don't want the town to know--if I sold the house, I'd have to disclose that, yes: but I'm concerned that I could get into some situation where I could be forced into doing more than I anticipated. Like, they turn down the addition but I'm required to do whatever it takes to repair the house, pending some legal threat. I'm guessing I can be cagey about the structural issues, and leave it at "I just want more space?" But aren't they going to want to visit the site first, before rendering opinion, thus leaving me open to them discovering the true issues?

Can you bury tires? Previous owner got the permit to make a retaining wall from tires. I'd leave that alone, but would wind up backfilling a portion of it, actually the foundation would be sitting next to the tires I think (tires against cinderblock).

Would you put an addition onto a house, despite of the fact that it'll look like a barn afterwards? Right now, it's a 1.5 story (2 story? two full height floors, no attic) with an irregular addition on it, at a more shallow roof pitch. The addition would replicate that older addition, mirroring the house. But I think it'd look like a barn. And since I'm on the road, well, it won't look right.

Finally, is it possible to get into a situation on an addition where you wind up owing more than the finished property is worth? I mean assessed value; actual salable value is likely less. I'm right at 20% ownership, but that is using an appraisel from 2 years ago--which likely assumed a house with no structural issues. I'm not certain that x dollars spent in renovating adds x dollars of value. Looking Zillow, and kinda keeping loose tabs on my town, indicates houses are not moving particularly fast right now; if anything, owners are still dropping prices in order to make houses move.

Personally, I'd rather move; but it'd be a short sale and I'd be back to renting. Plus I'm not sure if I want another 30 year mortgage. I was looking forward to paying off what I have in 10; 30 years from now I was hoping to be retired!

 

[racer12306]

If no one in the area questions it you could probably get away with it until you sold it. The maps and such get brought up at that point and then it would be found that non-permitted work was performed. Then it could be more of a headache than you are currently dealing with. I would think it could go as far as the jurisdiction requiring it to be partially or fully removed to verify various building codes were followed.

 

[99Saturn]

I don't have answers to all your questions but I'll add my $.02 on a couple.
Originally Posted By: supton
Finally, is it possible to get into a situation on an addition where you wind up owing more than the finished property is worth? I mean assessed value; actual salable value is likely less. I'm right at 20% ownership, but that is using an appraisel from 2 years ago--which likely assumed a house with no structural issues. I'm not certain that x dollars spent in renovating adds x dollars of value. Looking Zillow, and kinda keeping loose tabs on my town, indicates houses are not moving particularly fast right now; if anything, owners are still dropping prices in order to make houses move.

Personally, I'd rather move; but it'd be a short sale and I'd be back to renting. Plus I'm not sure if I want another 30 year mortgage. I was looking forward to paying off what I have in 10; 30 years from now I was hoping to be retired!

Yes it's certainly possible. Since few of us are going to have direct knowledge of your market, your best bet is to start gathering as many sources as you can to try to gauge your home's value. Look for comparable sales, consult a couple of real estate agents (you could ask a couple for an estimate as if you are planning on selling your home). If there is a lot of variability in the market, you should come up with what you want the value to be appraisal wise and find information to support that, and give it to the appraiser when they do a walk through. A lot of the numbers are really based on what comparables are picked and can create a large swing in a short period of time.

When we bought a little over 2 years ago versus when we refinanced 14 months later we were told the house was worth 20% less. Our situation was likely driven in large part by our purchase price but honestly IMO we over appraised the first time and under appraised the second time. Citing some things to the second appraiser quickly changed the appraisal to make the numbers work.

 

[Wolf359]

In general, most people don't bother doing additions because if you're doing it because you need more space, it's usually cheaper and easier to buy a new place. You build the addition if you like the neighborhood and prices are going up so it doesn't make sense to move. If the wall is moving, you could just fix the wall, should be much less than building an addition. Plus if it doesn't meet new setback rules, they probably won't let you build it, usually one reason why additions are built in the rear, not front or side. Also if you believe you have no equity in the house and would have to resort to a short sale, I wouldn't even bother pouring more money into it. Where are you going to get the money anyway? If you're under water, you probably can't get a home equity loan.

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: supton
but it'd be a short sale and I'd be back to renting.

I was looking forward to paying off what I have in 10;


A short sale with only 10 years left on the mortgage? Hmmm, that doesn't seem to make sense. If equity is that tight not sure I'd put more money into this home especially one with structural($$$) issues. I'd consider fixing the structural issues first to stabilize things. Maybe revisit the addition in 5-10 years. Seems like you're fixing up a sinking ship.

Consider paying off the Tundra first since you've mentioned that in other threads.

 

[JamesBond]

Go and sit down with a city planner and building inspector before you spend any money. Call them ahead of time and schedule an appointment and tell them the basics first and they might do a bunch of the research for you before you even meet with them.

You will usually not be allowed to increase an existing non-conformity, so any addition will have to meet setbacks and all other sections of the current zoning and building code.

These City codes can be a real mess so its best to ask the people who use them everyday. If you're nice and ask for help in understanding what you can/can't do, they will be much more flexible than if just tell them what you plan to do and then complain when they tell you that you can't do it.

You may even need to have an HOA or Subdividion approval, architectural review and all kinds of other stuff for an addition.

You can live in a place that has zoning and building code violations as long as its not a danger and meets property maintenance standards so you can explain the problems to them. Its only when you apply for permits or go to sell the property that these things have to be identified or corrected.

Of course the rules are different everywhere so what I've said may not apply to your property, which is why you need to meet with these people first.

 

[Donald]

I would talk to some contractors and see how anal the building inspector is.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

Originally Posted By: supton
How much grief can the town inspector/board/whatever give one for pursuing a house addition? I'm trying to figure out how much I can disclose vs ask, and not have it bite me in the rear.


It depends upon the inspector/assessor/board/etc. The right thing to do is to disclose the work and get the proper permits. If you don't there's a good possiblity that the inspector will find out and shut the job down. It will bite even harder if you try to bypass them and they find out.

Originally Posted By: supton


I'm 99% sure my house doesn't meet setback rules. But it's existing, so grandfathered. Problem is, if I put on an addition the new part will be just as close to the road as all the other parts. That shouldn't matter, right?


That depends upon the local ordinances and code. The only way to find out the information is to disclose what you're planning to do. There's always the possibility of a variance or waver, some zoning/inspection boards are open to the idea, some are not.

Originally Posted By: supton



Now the reason for the addition is to buttress a wall that is moving. I kinda don't want the town to know--if I sold the house, I'd have to disclose that, yes: but I'm concerned that I could get into some situation where I could be forced into doing more than I anticipated. Like, they turn down the addition but I'm required to do whatever it takes to repair the house, pending some legal threat. I'm guessing I can be cagey about the structural issues, and leave it at "I just want more space?" But aren't they going to want to visit the site first, before rendering opinion, thus leaving me open to them discovering the true issues?


That's very likely and not uncommon when doing major renovations to an older home. You may not be doing any electrical work, but open a wall with electrical that isn't up to code and you'll have to make it right. And being "cagey" isn't going to score you any points. Most of these folks have seen it all before, and if it's anything other than a large city chances are they already know about or can guess the structural issues that are present.


Originally Posted By: supton


Can you bury tires? Previous owner got the permit to make a retaining wall from tires. I'd leave that alone, but would wind up backfilling a portion of it, actually the foundation would be sitting next to the tires I think (tires against cinderblock).


I can't imagine it being legal to bury tires, nor can I imagine your "tires against cinderblock" being up to any sort of code. Do it right or don't do it at all.

Originally Posted By: supton


Would you put an addition onto a house, despite of the fact that it'll look like a barn afterwards? Right now, it's a 1.5 story (2 story? two full height floors, no attic) with an irregular addition on it, at a more shallow roof pitch. The addition would replicate that older addition, mirroring the house. But I think it'd look like a barn. And since I'm on the road, well, it won't look right.


Done right it can look good. But you'll have to have someone design it correctly.

Originally Posted By: supton


Finally, is it possible to get into a situation on an addition where you wind up owing more than the finished property is worth? I mean assessed value; actual salable value is likely less. I'm right at 20% ownership, but that is using an appraisel from 2 years ago--which likely assumed a house with no structural issues. I'm not certain that x dollars spent in renovating adds x dollars of value. Looking Zillow, and kinda keeping loose tabs on my town, indicates houses are not moving particularly fast right now; if anything, owners are still dropping prices in order to make houses move.


Absolutely. You need to know your costs going into the job, know what you're likely to encounter when doing it, and what add ons you'll likely have to fix once you do get into it. That's where a quality contractor can help. Some additions/renovations won't increase the value as much as they cost; others will increase the value far more than they cost.

A lot depends upon the neighborhood-if it's the worst house in the good neighborhood (my favorite when we were investing in real estate) then pretty much any reasonable improvement you do will be recouped in value. If it's the best house in the neighborhood, or the neighborhood is less than desirable, it may be impossible to recoup any value from the renovation. Keep in mind that the increase in your standard of living also has value; unless this is an investment property looking only at the value of the property can be short sighted.

Bottom line-do it right and be up front with your local zoning/assessment/inspection folks. You'll get a lot more cooperation from them if you work with them; but they'll come down on you hard if you try to sneak around them.

 

[supton]

Live in the sticks, so no HOA's, no town water, heck the town won't plow the road that feeds my second driveway (class six road). Town of 1,700 people, we don't even have a traffic light.

I'm not against selling my Tundra. Won't like it, but, situations change. It made sense to buy. At the time. Now, not so much, thus it can go. I could take the proceeds (not upside down on that loan), fix up the Jetta, and then not have that monthly payment.

We have always paid extra on our loans, so as to pay off early and save on interest. 4-5 years ago we got a nice inheritance, so we put a big chunk into the principle, under the assumption that it'd save us in the long term (no car loans at that time, pretty sure no school debt, and wasn't wise enough to invest in an index fund). Refi two summers ago brought the APR down from 6.125% to 3%; we also went from a 30yr to a 15yr (after 7 years ownership, oops been here nine years actually). But IMO my property has not recovered from the 25% market correction; now toss in structural issues and I clearly paid too much.

I'm not looking to cheat anyone, nor do anything unwise or that which would bite me (or any future owner of this house) at some later date. I'm just trying to get all my options on the table then make a decision. I don't want to call the town building inspector, looking for info, only to have the occupancy permit revoked, thus tossing me out on my rear. Or any similar sort of worst case scenario.

 

[LargeCarManX2]

Run this by the best contractor/s in your area and get a few opinions. If this looks feasible, draft some blueprints and submit the plans. Problem now a day's is "International" building codes in most areas....yes, even po-dunk towns have adopted these. So you might need to update to them, and you might as well bulldoze down the whole house and build a new one if indeed these codes are in your area.

 

[The_Jeff]

Setback will bite you in the bum. Usually in this instance the only way you can build is UP! There are properties all over that are grandfathered in but they are also locked in and you can't do much! Look at a place like Rockaway Beach where all those bungalows have gone unchanged for generations.

I thought a garage would look good next to my house. Nope! Had to be set back worse. Now I have 50+ feet of driveway to snowblow, and my land use looks slightly funny. Of course setback rules are there so stuff looks "peachy keen" in the eyes of the rule writer.

That said the payback on building up, I have read, is usually pretty good. Versus putting in a pool, for example, that only gets you pennies on the dollar.

Chat up the town hall people. Find out if there's a zoning appeals process, and if you can claim poverty. See if anyone got away with it. Like you have a sick mom who's going to live with you and you need her on the first floor b/c she can't climb stairs, and you need a bathroom etc.

 

[supton]

Bulldoze would be an expensive proposition best left to the next owner, as it'd likely involve tampering with the septic too, and starting from scratch in general. Don't ask me why, but the septic line goes out, takes a 45 degree turn and then goes to the tank. Moving the house back would require filling in the land or dealing with drainage issues and then a 90 degree turn to the existing septic (which is only sized for a 3 bedroom house anyhow). Talk about a complete restart.

I scanned through what the town has online. I didn't see anything about "international" though. A few things spelled out about chimneys, good amount about setback from various road size, min road frontage and min lot size (250' road frontage, 2acre min, 55' from a "3 rod wide road"). But nothing "international".

I don't mind spending a couple hundred to explore options, but beyond that and I'm thinking that money is better spent elsewhere. I'd hate to spend a grand to only find out that the bulldozer is the best option.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Setback will bite you in the bum. Usually in this instance the only way you can build is UP! There are properties all over that are grandfathered in but they are also locked in and you can't do much! Look at a place like Rockaway Beach where all those bungalows have gone unchanged for generations.

I thought a garage would look good next to my house. Nope! Had to be set back worse. Now I have 50+ feet of driveway to snowblow, and my land use looks slightly funny. Of course setback rules are there so stuff looks "peachy keen" in the eyes of the rule writer.

That said the payback on building up, I have read, is usually pretty good. Versus putting in a pool, for example, that only gets you pennies on the dollar.

Chat up the town hall people. Find out if there's a zoning appeals process, and if you can claim poverty. See if anyone got away with it. Like you have a sick mom who's going to live with you and you need her on the first floor b/c she can't climb stairs, and you need a bathroom etc.


Not sure I'd feel ok about claiming poverty. Sins of omission vs sins of... something.

Also, no way I'm building up! The wall that is moving appears to be rough cut 2x4's on 21" centering. Side wall (which needs replacing) has at least one done on 23" centers--when I slam the door on that side, I'd swear the whole wall shakes. Ballon framing with seven decades of oddities. No way I'm putting any more weight onto it than I have to. Plus, I'd hate to tear off a roof that I just had put on oh 5 years ago. That would hurt me, knowing what I paid to have that roof done.

The right answer is really to tear down and restart. That's also the most expensive and longest term answer.

My neighbor did grandfather a house; he had it torn down and even put in a basement while doing it. So it can be done. He also had nothing to lose, seeing how he has several properties, two of which he could live on at any given time. And of course, the fact that there was nothing that could be done with such a tiny property (0.2 acres, IIRC; it's a rental now) I'm sure helped sway the town.

 

[IndyIan]

I would just sit tight until spring, and then start removing drywall and insulation until you can see why the house is shifting. Hopefully its an easy fix to firm it up. Metal connectors and wood are pretty cheap. You really have to do this anyways before an addition can be added.
Then you have something you can live in while you figure out what to do next, if anything. Some new drywall and paint, and trim can change how you feel about the place.
Also you might want to do some reading on small houses to get ideas on how to maximize the utility of the space you have.

 

[supton]

Roof is shifting, due to a lack of rafter ties. The ridgeline has sagged, which is forcing the top of one wall outward due to the forces (no rafter ties at the top of the wall). I've also found rot in one wall, due to leaks. Adding the proper rafter ties would nearly half the space in my house, as the master would be rendered practically unusable; at an advertised 700sqft I don't have much to spare.

I'm not sure if it's "right" to leave the current siding on. Right now it's coated with ice on the inside, due to no vapor barriers in the house. It's been collecting moisture for years now, and has turned black from rot (on the sections I can see). There is no sheathing behind the siding, so I suspect the insulation has taken a beating. I'm not sure that is wise to just slap some then sheathing on, then vinyl, leaving behind studs in unknown shape.

 

[IndyIan]

Your rafter ties are your 2nd floor joists, you don't need more, you just need the connection between the wall studs and floor joists to stop failing now, as it did hold for several decades. Or perhaps a few studs have started to rot allowing them to flex.
Its up to you, I would gut the shifting wall atleast and replace and reinforce the structure as needed to make it solid. Also then you can see if your siding is leaking from the outside, and replace that too if you need it.
Then you can sell it in safe condition if you want and let someone else deal with the rest.
Also I was thinking that it might be to your advantage to move soon before house prices rebound, as I think the absolute cost difference between your current place and new one will be less, than if you wait for the rebound to get your original buying price?

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: supton

I'm 99% sure my house doesn't meet setback rules. But it's existing, so grandfathered. Problem is, if I put on an addition the new part will be just as close to the road as all the other parts. That shouldn't matter, right?


Around here, it would. The new construction would have to meet all requirements for new construction.

If the new construction is extensive enough, they'll go through the old parts and demand that ALL of it meet new construction requirements.

$$$$$$

You can seek a variance from the setback requirement.

Originally Posted By: supton
I'm guessing I can be cagey about the structural issues, and leave it at "I just want more space?" But aren't they going to want to visit the site first, before rendering opinion, thus leaving me open to them discovering the true issues?


I wouldn't tell them anything more than you are legally required to tell them. Around here, they want expensive drawings up front. No one actually visits until an inspector (one or more for everything) comes out to nit pick and look for things that will cost more money and cause more delay.

Originally Posted By: supton
Can you bury tires?


Around here, I don't think so, but I doubt someone would be made to undo something that was already properly permitted, unless it wound up becoming "new construction", then all bets are off.


Originally Posted By: supton
Finally, is it possible to get into a situation on an addition where you wind up owing more than the finished property is worth?


Sure, I'd say that was common, but given time appreciation should overtake it, unless you build something that nobody is ever going to want in the future.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: LargeCarManX2
.... Problem now a day's is "International" building codes in most areas....yes, even po-dunk towns have adopted these. ...


Yep. These goofy things are all the rage now. I call ours that "(unprintable) French property code".

What a pain in the behind it is.

 

[datech]

You haven't said if you are in a city or out in the county.

When I bought my old house I got a bit of help from different people in the trades, lumber yards, Home Depot, etc. They usually know how things work in your area.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
and if you can claim poverty. See if anyone got away with it. Like you have a sick mom who's going to live with you and you need her on the first floor b/c she can't climb stairs, and you need a bathroom etc.


Around here we consider that lying; not only is it unethical but it has the potential to get to into legal trouble when you falsify claims before a governing body such as a zoning/building/assessors office.

Besides, anyone who's been around the business for a bit has already dealt with shysters trying to pass of things like that; most of the folks in those offices are pretty adept at spotting liars.