Hondas, Toyotas and the brainwashed

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc

But here is the irony... the Japanese "problem" areas were still more reliable than their domestic counterpart. Those Honda transmissions WHEN PAIRED WITH THEIR V6 failed... but typically after a lot of high mile use.


Back in 03-05 I remember that same crummy 5 speed auto haveing issues in 4 banger Acuras. And many of those V6 slushboxes failed well before 100k.

Quote:
issue. Yeah, the rear doors and trunk fill with water. Older Tauruses were nicknamed trixie... because you thought it was fixed but SURPRISE!!! You are stranded! Tranny, a few alternators, power steering, suspension ect. I almost bought it on government surplus to give it its own funeral pyre... but knowing its luck, it would not be reliable enough to catch fire.


Yet tons of these Taurus' make it to 200k.
https://blog.iseecars.com/longest-lasting-cars-over-200000-miles/

Quote:
Here is the trick... I run a government fleet. We buy mostly domestic.


I don't know I'd equate government abuse with how a normal person drives and maintains their vehicle. Fleet/rental cars and can only imagine the abuse they take.

If the foreign makes were so much better you'd think the fleet management who looks to reduce cost would be buying Camries and Accords over Tauruses and Impalas.

Quote:
Give me 100 of each (2017s), lets run them to 300,000 and tally the operating cost. It will not even be a fair fight. Not only that, but what a world of hurt if you want to start comparing 2010/2011 Accords/Camrys, early 2000s Rav4s/CRVs as those are some of the era combined with the domestics gawd-aweful-era products.


I'm not sure how it would play out but I think you'd be surprised. If the domestic makes were so bad they wouldn't have such high Owner Loyalty

It was a shock to me - I figured Honda and Toyota would have been #1 or #2 in no particular order....

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: StevieC

I guess you missed this...

No, didn't miss that. Honda had plenty of transmission and other issues for years (Accord, Odyssey, Acura). And yet they were glossed over. They had/have issues with VCM (v6) and that's also glossed over.

Toyota's volume units had sludge-o-matic engines and yet that was/is OK. I think they may have had trans issues too.

But if a domestic has an trim piece fall of it's a POS.

Now the idiot that keeps putting the POS DCT 6 speed in the Focus and Fiesta should be shot. It ruins an otherwise excellent vehicle.

 

[StevieC]

We could list all the vehicles with problems how about that. I guarantee you my list of domestic problems will be longer. I'll even leave the trim problems off the list.

Further, don't take my word for it. There is a reason people aren't buying "domestic" any longer. Surely it's not all a case of brainwashing and it IS a case of better quality. (Outside of the good models each has)

But sure... We'll go with the trim theory.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: StevieC

Further, don't take my word for it. There is a reason people aren't buying "domestic" any longer. Surely it's not all a case of brainwashing and it IS a case of better quality. (Outside of the good models each has)


If they were so bad they would not have such high Owner Loyalty. Ford and GM are tops there.

Why would you keep going back if you had a junk experience?

 

[StevieC]

Not worth arguing because it's not going anywhere.

Loyalty is so good they can float on their own then? Yeah that's what I thought... Last I checked they are laying off and closing plants world wide the other brands are doing the opposite. Guess it's all those Trim Pieces falling off that just got to everyone and brain washed them into other brands.

I'm done with this.

 

[Silverado12]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Name some of these world class products.
I could use a good laugh.


Ford GT, Corvette.


I'd add F-150, Silverado, ATS and CTS - especially in V trim.


The pickups?
Sure, given that there is no other market in the world that supports this type of vehicle.
If half ton pickups were common elsewhere, Ford and Chevy might have something to worry about.
Since they aren't, they don't.
The Caddy's?
Quite debatable.
These cars lack the overall refinement of the German and the Japanese models that they seek to emulate but still seem pretty good.
I have to admit that these cars show that Cadillac is going in the right direction and might someday lose the ghetto fabulous rep and come to be regarded as a legitimate competitor to various BMW and Lexus models, which appears to be what GM is aiming for.
This is an effort that may well succeed, especially as BMW dumbs down their own offerings.
I am rooting for the home team here. Would love to see Cadillac become the next Lexus or BMW.


Would be nice if you bought from the home team.

 

[Silverado12]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
We could list all the vehicles with problems how about that. I guarantee you my list of domestic problems will be longer. I'll even leave the trim problems off the list.

Further, don't take my word for it. There is a reason people aren't buying "domestic" any longer. Surely it's not all a case of brainwashing and it IS a case of better quality. (Outside of the good models each has)

But sure... We'll go with the trim theory.

I buy domestics and haven't had any of these so called problems. Buy what you want; you seem like you're trying to justify buying foreign and not supporting domestic manufacturers. Maybe someone else in a foreign can do your job cheaper and better and you'll know how it feels to have to eat your own shiite to survive.

 

[StevieC]

If you only knew how many "foreign" made parts were in your "domestic" vehicles you would scream. Secondly it is your "Domestic" companies that are laying off "Domestic" workers "locally" when the "Foreigners" are opening up factories "locally" and employing "domestically"

GET ALL THAT?

Edit: On top of all that if you read what I said above you would understand that every manufacturer has it's problem children and good vehicles, you most likely had the good ones which is why you THINK the whole brand is sound. It's the proportion of good to bad that counts and that is where the "Domestics" take first prize. Not all of them but more than not. Whereas folks that have switched away are doing better with "Foreign" makes that have more models without problems than with problems. (Not all, but a better proportion)

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: StevieC
We could list all the vehicles with problems how about that. I guarantee you my list of domestic problems will be longer. I'll even leave the trim problems off the list.

Further, don't take my word for it. There is a reason people aren't buying "domestic" any longer. Surely it's not all a case of brainwashing and it IS a case of better quality. (Outside of the good models each has)

But sure... We'll go with the trim theory.

I buy domestics and haven't had any of these so called problems. Buy what you want; you seem like you're trying to justify buying foreign and not supporting domestic manufacturers. Maybe someone else in a foreign can do your job cheaper and better and you'll know how it feels to have to eat your own shiite to survive.


A lot of the foreign manufacturers like Honda and Toyota have factories here in the US and hire American workers, while GM and Ford outsource to Mexico to cut costs. The only real domestic part about the domestic companies is that the CEOs get to sit in their nice offices here in the US. The Toyota Camry was near the top for the vehicle with the most domestic content for a while. I know the Tundra is built in Texas.

 

[StevieC]

Here are all the vehicles made in Canada as of 2015. Are they foreign or domestic?

Here are the ones made in Mexico. Are these foreign or domestic?

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/auto...ed-south-border

 

[fdcg27]

I do buy from the home team.
That's why I have two made in Ohio Accords.
Let's also remember that GM, Ford, Honda and Toyota are publicly held concerns of international ownership.
The profits go to the common shareholders located worldwide.

 

[StevieC]

It's a global economy, you can try and make it "Domestic" in your mind but nothing is sovereign any longer when it comes to automotive.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Name some of these world class products.
I could use a good laugh.


Ford GT, Corvette.


Niche products that mean absolutely nothing in the context of a volume manufacturer playing on the world stage.
The Ford GT is a money loser while the Corvette might be profitable given the volume in which Chevy sells them.
Neither could ever hope to generate the profits of a good mid sized sedan program, much less a hot CUV.
Ford and Chevy aren't Ferrari. Their money is made in good volume products, not halo cars that few would consider buying even among those who could afford to.


You seemed to neglect mentioning those qualifiers in the post I quoted. You asked for world-class products, both of those fit the bill and were manufactured by the marques in question. Full-stop. You may not like the answer, but that's not my problem.

You are right though, Ford and Chevy aren't Ferrari, as Ferrari was owned by FIAT starting in 1969. Similar to how Ford owned Aston Martin and Chrysler used to own Lamborghini (now owed by Audi). You can't compare a company that can't make enough money to survive on its own to some of the largest brands in the world, even if at times, they've been horribly managed (GM).

Have a GREAT day.


I neglected to mention the two models you cite since they're so irrelevant to the volume business both companies are in. That should have been obvious.
You should probably read up a little on Fiat's acquisition of Ferrari. Ferrari could no longer afford his ambitious racing program by 1969 and Fiat appeared as a white knight to fund Ferrari racing.
It is important to note that Fiat had little control over Ferrari road car development until after Ferrari died. The joke was on Fiat, since Ferrari lived to ninety years of age, only dying in 1988. Your notes of Lambo and Aston ownership are mostly accurate but irrelevant.
I hope you'll have a great (my caps lock key doesn't get stuck) day as well.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
If you only knew how many "foreign" made parts were in your "domestic" vehicles you would scream. Secondly it is your "Domestic" companies that are laying off "Domestic" workers "locally" when the "Foreigners" are opening up factories "locally" and employing "domestically"


Well, the engines in my 2 came from Cleveland, Ohio (EB 3.5s), probably all casted nearby. The transmissions came from Van Dyke, MI (6F55), and Livonia, MI (6R80). One was assembled in Chicago, IL so the body was built there. The other was assembled in Dearborn, MI same thing for its body. So the big things did stay domestic.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I neglected to mention the two models you cite since they're so irrelevant to the volume business both companies are in. That should have been obvious.


Nice try. You specifically stated:

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Name some of these world class products.
I could use a good laugh.


You didn't mention any models. You neglected to state that there were specific qualifiers in order for your resultant eruption of guffaws to take place. Those qualifiers were apparently, at least in part, the exclusion of the two most notable world-class products those marques produce. Whether they are high volume products, loss leaders....etc (though that more applies to the Ford GT, the Corvette sells well for what it is) is irrelevant.


Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You should probably read up a little on Fiat's acquisition of Ferrari. Ferrari could no longer afford his ambitious racing program by 1969 and Fiat appeared as a white knight to fund Ferrari racing.
It is important to note that Fiat had little control over Ferrari road car development until after Ferrari died. The joke was on Fiat, since Ferrari lived to ninety years of age, only dying in 1988. Your notes of Lambo and Aston ownership are mostly accurate but irrelevant.


It's entirely relevant, you brought up Ferrari, which by your own account, was unable to continue to pay for their own racing program. Whether the old man got the last laugh or not doesn't matter, he needed money from a volume producer, which in this case was FIAT, to carry on, no different from my other two examples. Do you think GM's Corvette program would survive on its own? Of course not. But the trickle-down from that benefits the rest of their line-up, that's how it's supposed to work. Whether there's enough of that however, is another topic.

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I hope you'll have a great (my caps lock key doesn't get stuck) day as well.


A pity, that. Generally, I find the key behaves itself when people show some restraint with their attitude

 

[demarpaint]

Catchy title, here goes. After selling Honda vehicles, a lot of them, and having to deal with customers who had problems with them, I could never understand the love affair, or for that matter the hype and greatness I often read or hear about from some people. Obviously opinions vary, but I can safely say the odds of me owning a Honda are slim to none.

I don't see myself in a Toyota either but I view it as a better vehicle than a Honda, having sold my fair share of them too in the used car market. I agree that the US/Japanese quality gap has narrowed or disappeared over the last several years.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: StevieC
If you only knew how many "foreign" made parts were in your "domestic" vehicles you would scream. Secondly it is your "Domestic" companies that are laying off "Domestic" workers "locally" when the "Foreigners" are opening up factories "locally" and employing "domestically"


Well, the engines in my 2 came from Cleveland, Ohio (EB 3.5s), probably all casted nearby. The transmissions came from Van Dyke, MI (6F55), and Livonia, MI (6R80). One was assembled in Chicago, IL so the body was built there. The other was assembled in Dearborn, MI same thing for its body. So the big things did stay domestic.



This is great all these details make you happy. It's too much thought for me-in addition I could care less what comes from where.

Just bought a CUV for my wife-made in Korea. Saved thousands over an Honda Pilot or Toyota Highlander.

 

[MCompact]

I've owned British, German, Italian, Japanese, Swedish, and US vehicles. They all have their pluses and minuses. I buy what I like and what best meets my needs/wants; the country of origin is at most a secondary consideration.

 

[miden851]

Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: StevieC
If you only knew how many "foreign" made parts were in your "domestic" vehicles you would scream. Secondly it is your "Domestic" companies that are laying off "Domestic" workers "locally" when the "Foreigners" are opening up factories "locally" and employing "domestically"


Well, the engines in my 2 came from Cleveland, Ohio (EB 3.5s), probably all casted nearby. The transmissions came from Van Dyke, MI (6F55), and Livonia, MI (6R80). One was assembled in Chicago, IL so the body was built there. The other was assembled in Dearborn, MI same thing for its body. So the big things did stay domestic.



This is great all these details make you happy. It's too much thought for me-in addition I could care less what comes from where.

Just bought a CUV for my wife-made in Korea. Saved thousands over an Honda Pilot or Toyota Highlander.


Yes they save you upfront but in the long run, most likely not

The same goes for year end model, especially a body style; upfront you save but if you want to sell it, the latter year or body style of a vhiecle will save you more

 

[Kurtatron]

I can understand the reluctance to buy Domestic branded vehicles. Historically, they have a tarnished reputation. My dad bought a Dakota brand new in 1995, and it had a rod knock after like 5 years and burned a ton of oil. He went to Japanese only after that. It’s funny, I think most of us actually emulate our parents. If our parents were domestic people, we are also. There are exceptions, so don’t respond like I am making a rule of this.

I think it is true that Toyota’s are overall more reliable than Ford or GM, but only as some mentioned here as a roll of the dice. You buy a Toyota, your odds of having major breakdowns might be less than a GM, but that doesn’t mean the Toyota is impervious either. The GM might make it further than the Toyota.

I have thought about the whole reliability thing, and have come to see it as a sort of Faith. If you are really honest with yourself, you will see that reliability is a matter of trust. You trust that it will go 200k without an engine failure if you follow the owner’s manual. Expert opinion, personal experience, and acquaintance experiences play into his. And some cars are more trustworthy than others, but when it comes down to it, no one here is a prophet. No one, no matter how adamant, can say with absolute certainty that his/her vehicle will last so and so miles without a major breakdown. Remember the Toyota Rusty frames? Pride in a brand will not make it more reliable, both domestics and foreign makes.

Like I mentioned earlier, it may not be important to everyone to support “Michigan”. I mean really, we are strangers to one another. I know an executive at GM that is a total jerk, so should I support him by buying GM? I do agree that people should buy what they want, foreign or domestic. My next car will be a Domestic. I have committed to trying one out, because in Detroit, there is a domestic car culture here. It is my choice to do so. But I am going to do my research. Blind faith is foolish, but research will help me make the best dice roll that I can. I will also try to buy American Made.

Maybe the big 3 need to step up their game. That’s how they can improve. But I am confident that they have improved since 20 years ago. And I hope the trend continues. Competition is great for the consumer. But I think bashing without numbers is frustrating. I have no problem with someone saying “I am a fan of Toyota because of stellar reliability.” But when he turns around and says “domestics are rubbish” as an overarching judgement, that’s what annoys me. And believe me, I used to do that also. Argue with evidence and numbers. At least look at consumer reports, car complaints.com, etc. before casting judgement, unless you think you are a better expert than those people who study these cars day in and day out.

Be fair. With the same trust you can put in your foreign car, let someone else put the same trust in their domestic car. Maybe it will work out, maybe it won’t. Personally I think the best response is this: “I have only bought foreign cars lately. I haven’t had much experience with that new model Ford vehicle, But my history is XYZ. That may not be the case with yor car, and I hope yours works out ok. I hope you did your research before making a purchase.” Rather than “Oh, that Ford sucks because it is a Ford.” You really just don’t know how far it’s gonna go.