Honda Z1 13k mi '99 Accord 4cyl Auto

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'99 Honda Accord 2.3L Auto 63k total miles dealer drain/fills @ 30k and 50k. girlfriend's car... mainly city drving, nothing too rigorous. by my calculations this is really the equivalent of "28k mile fluid" with the partial fluid exchanges. AL does seem a little out of whack in relation to the other numbers. I don't think it slips at all. how does a TC wear out? as for insolubles - I don't think this tranny has a filter, right? does anyone know if this was one of the faulty models/years for Honda autos?? I'd say this really shows that Honda's recommended Z1 service interval of 90k is simply way too long. and I'm not liking the Z1 (looked like used drain oil). will start looking for alternatives...
quote:
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This seems a little high in wear for me. I would go to 10,000 mile changes and check again after a few of those. The wear in my 97 was 8ppm aluminum and 51 iron after 20,000 mile change. After several quick changes it should look better. I am doing 30,000 mile changes on mine but yours looks to need 15,000 mile changes after the few 10,000 mile ones to clean it out.
 

sky jumper

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good idea on the filter. I know nothing about installing such a filter - do you have any recommendations/advice.
 
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B&M, Magnefine, and Permacool have ATF filter kits. http://www.magnefine.com/ http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Cat_page25.html http://www.bmracing.com/media/catalog/9.pdf IMO, the Magnefine is the simplest to install. But, its the most expensive to service. The normal remote filters use a $3 PH8a/FL1a oil filter that can be serviced cheaply once or twice a year. Plus they increase the sump capacity by 1 quart(aids in temperature control). A PH977/FL299 can be used if you have the room and holds even more fluid(think bigger sump). But, any remote oil filter mount can be used. You'll have to plumb it(splice it in between the ATF cooler lines). Ebay/northerntool/... usually have filter heads(the remote filter mount). Your local autoparts store has ATF hose for running the plumbing. Hose clamps and mounting screws can be bought anywhere. NPT to hose fittings/adapters can be found at most speed shops and plumbing suppliers. The permacool/BM kits sell for ~$35. These pictures shows all the parts required. http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/700/771/771-10678.jpg http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/bmm-80277.jpg I've built a couple for ~$15 with ebay, swap meet, and yard sale parts. And, you can add magnetic filtration by sticking several magnets around the filter. If room is an issue, use a smaller ph3600/ph3614/ph43/ph16 filter. If you want bling, use the chrome plated Harley filters. If you want to use an OEM branded filter, use a filter mount that is the same thread as your vehicle.
 
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I have an '00 Acura 3.2TL (71K) so it has the 5-sp auto. I don't know all the models afflicted with the troublesome tranny syndrome but I know my car is included, don't know about your g/f's 4-sp (doubt it). The 5-sp has an internal, non-user-serviceable screen filter so if the fluid hasn't been d&f'd in a while I guess it could eventually clog up. The trans has a magnetic drain plug like the engine oil pan so I do a trans d&f at every oil change, 3 qts. gets replaced each time. The magnet always has a coating of grey paste, these trannies shed their fair share of metallic particles which is normal. I mentioned my experience with the 5-sp because I think it's similar in design to the 4-sp trans that was used in Hondas/Acuras around that time. Basically the best, and only, maintenance you can do on a stock Honda tranny is regular fluid d&f's with the recommended ATF, Z-1 in this case. I agree that 90K interval is too long but I don't think that Z-1 is necessarily a bad fluid, it's formulated specifically to work in these trannies. The tranny may not be the most durable design so going with a fluid that's not Z-1 compatible is an invitation of trouble. My 2¢ Good luck.
 

sky jumper

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unDummy - thanks for the great info. could I ask you a few more questions before I buy the parts? 1) should I get a filter head with a BPV built in, or just rely on the oil filter's BPV. Northern tool has both. 2) Northern tool has 1", 3/8", and 1/2" NPT ports. does it matter what size I use? or is it just a matter of matching the NPT connector to the filter head. I'm guessing the cooler line in the car is not NPT and therefore will need to be spliced as you say. 3) do all these filter heads have 3/4-16 threads? northern tool doesn't specify. thanks!
 
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I drain and fill my RSX auto every 10K so fluid is very fresh. Never noticed more than a smear of debris on the magnetic oil plug. I think the chances of one of these screens becoming clogged is slim, at least I've never heard of it. If it did happen the tranny is probably toast anyway. Never had the stones to use anything other than Z-1 but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
 
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I was draining out my Z1 every 30k on my integra and there is always a coat of grey iron paste on the magnetic plug. The fluid is always red when coming out, but sometimes you see a few small pieces of black particles. Nothing big or scary compare to other transmission design. Just put in SF Autoglide for Z1, took me a while to make up my mind for it. A bit expensive at $10 a quart but the result is good. I wasn't expecting my tranny to quiet down but it did. In 30k I will drain the Autoglide and see how much grey metal paste is on the plug and the amount of black particles drained out.
 
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You might want to consult Terry if you really want to know what is going on with the fluid & your tranny. Blackstone's comments are more harmful that helpful when it comes to transmissions or at least a Honda. For example, all the aluminum isn't from the TC. Do a VOA and you will see that. Also, they didn't even know that the car doesn't come with a filter. BTW, the warranty extensions was for '00-'01 model years but the 98 & 99 had a lot of problems as well. They should have done a warranty extension for all 6th generation (98-02)automatics. They didn't handle it very well corporately IMHO. The dealerships and zone managers have given some good service in a lot of cases anyway though. Did you do the drain & refill this time? Maybe the dealer didn't actually drain/refill one of those times? You do have a lot of wear. Your wear numbers are higher than my factory fill, with a V6, at ~22k miles. Did you get a TAN reading?
 

sky jumper

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No TAN reading. I too suspect the dealer may not have done what they charged her for. they also supposedly replaced the valve cover gasket at 49.5k miles for no reason other than it is a scheduled maintenance item on the <i>dealers</i> own maintenance list (the owner's manual mentions nothing of this). but when I inspected the car I found no evidence that the valve cover had ever been removed. this is also the dealer that twice put Krex graphite additive in the oil while the car was under warranty - many OCIs later the stuff still shows up on the dipstick and oil bloters as a silvery powder. sheesh!
 
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quote:
they also supposedly replaced the valve cover gasket at 49.5k miles for no reason other than it is a scheduled maintenance item on the dealers own maintenance list (the owner's manual mentions nothing of this). but when I inspected the car I found no evidence that the valve cover had ever been removed.
When dealers replace the valve cover gasket as part of their scheduled maintenance package, more often that not, it is due to a valve clearance adjustment. Nevertheless, I'm not understanding how one could possibly tell if a valve cover has been removed before. I doubt the dealership charged for a service it did not perform, as I'd expect the fluid to be in much poorer shape if that had been true. Its possible that you have a mechanical problem here, as the Aluminum is quite high. The elevated Iron may be related to the Aluminum "bump."
 
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quote:
When dealers replace the valve cover gasket as part of their scheduled maintenance package, more often that not, it is due to a valve clearance adjustment. Nevertheless, I'm not understanding how one could possibly tell if a valve cover has been removed before.
You can by the amount of "hondabond" or gasket maker they put around cam bump on the cover. If they don't use it, it will leak. Don't ask me how do I find out.
 

sky jumper

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right - the "hondabond" looked old, not fresh (covered in underhood dirt) only a couple months later. of course, if it doesn't come from the factory with hondabond (or if they do a better job applying it so it doesn't shmear out), then this would be evidence the dealer did in fact replace it. I also looked for wrench marks on the cover bolts, etc - looked like they had never been touched. they made no mention of valve clearance adjustment, although I would've had them at least check it had I been in the loop at that time.
 

pbm

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I own an 01' Accord 4 cyl. with an A/T. A few months after buying it I received a letter stating that the A/T would be covered for 7 years or 100K because 'some of them had problems'. I changed the original fluid at 25K and then again at 45K. I do find that its a bit 'vague' when first driven on very cold days but aside from that I haven't had any real problems. My neighbors 00' crapped out at 117K so I am now concerned that shortly after the extended warranty ends I may have problems. From reading this board I get the impression that the problems are inevitable regardless of how the car is maintained (its a defect that causes the problem and not lack of maintenance). I'll probably sell it when the warranty expires rather than risk a $3K repair. Needless to say it has soured my enthusiasm for Hondas.
 

sky jumper

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quote:
Originally posted by benjamming: ... For example, all the aluminum isn't from the TC. Do a VOA and you will see that.
do you mean there's AL in virgin Z1?
quote:
...BTW, the warranty extensions was for '00-'01 model years but the 98 & 99 had a lot of problems as well.
where can I learn more about this? I've done quite a bit of searching on bitog, but have found little hard analysis as to what the problems are - mostly just "honda autos suck". I'd also like to know more about the honda design and how it differs from other trannys (why is there no pan or filter?, etc).
quote:
Did you do the drain & refill this time? Your wear numbers are higher than my factory fill, with a V6, at ~22k miles.
yeah I'm on my second round of drain/fill since I sampled this ATF. trying to get it all out. does anyone know if we can do the "cooler return line" fluid exchange on this tranny? (not really a flush, just pumping all the old fluid out the return line at idle and running through the gears while pouring new fluid in, a few quarts at a time).
 

pbm

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by pbm: From reading this board I get the impression that the problems are inevitable regardless of how the car is maintained (its a defect that causes the problem and not lack of maintenance). Would most of you agree with this or do you think maintenance can make this tranny last 200K?
 
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skyjumper: http://www.driveaccord.net/ is a good place for TSBs and other information on this car. That's where I get most of my information. You can do the "cooler return line" fluid exchange. In the factory service manual, they say to use a Kent-Moore J38405-A or equivalent commercial cooler with 21 oz. of biodegradable flushing fluid (J35944-20). Pressure the flusher with compressed air to 80-120 psi. You then hook it up and flush the cooler line. I don't know why Honda didn't put a filter on their tranny. I believe they started this in 2005 though with the 5 speed automatic.
 
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quote:
You can do the "cooler return line" fluid exchange. In the factory service manual, they say to use a Kent-Moore J38405-A or equivalent commercial cooler with 21 oz. of biodegradable flushing fluid (J35944-20). Pressure the flusher with compressed air to 80-120 psi. You then hook it up and flush the cooler line.
Wrong. AT replacement instructions state to use such a machine, but to use Honda Z1 ONLY for flushing.
quote:
Would most of you agree with this or do you think maintenance can make this tranny last 200K?
I personally doubt few of these "complex," modern units mated to higher horsepower designs, especially Hondas, will last more than 150K.
quote:
I don't know why Honda didn't put a filter on their tranny. I believe they started this in 2005 though with the 5 speed automatic.
No need, really. Honda clutches shed very little. The magnet does just fine with regards to catching any debris. The in-line filter is there in the event of a catastrophic failure to prevent cooler clogging, but at that point, you're screwed anyway...
 
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quote:
Originally posted by The Critic:
quote:
You can do the "cooler return line" fluid exchange. In the factory service manual, they say to use a Kent-Moore J38405-A or equivalent commercial cooler with 21 oz. of biodegradable flushing fluid (J35944-20). Pressure the flusher with compressed air to 80-120 psi. You then hook it up and flush the cooler line.
Wrong. AT replacement instructions state to use such a machine, but to use Honda Z1 ONLY for flushing.

Not really. It's on page 14-125 of the 98-02 service manual under ATF Cooler Flushing. Now, you do use the Z1 spec fluid after you have flushed with water and the flushing fluid for 2 minutes with air valve on for 5 seconds every 15-20 seconds, reversed the hoses & repeated. Oh yeah, you also leave the air valve on for 2 minutes or until no moisture is visible leaving the drain hose. BTW, this procedure is listed as being performed before reinstalling the transmission.
 
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