Honda Prologue - the Better Blazer EV

[alarmguy]

lol @ rating the Solterra and BZ4x higher than Tesla. That thing is a joke. Maybe a reliable joke but they shouldn’t sell a single one.

I think the key is instead of calling something a joke, take a consensus of available surveys (these are not ratings) they are simply surveys of actual owners, no different than BITOG.
Information is key to someone who can take multiple sources to make decisions. What I dont understand is why people discount that information, that in in itself is the very bias others speak of.
Not sure exactly what ratings you are referencing but here is more info.
This is publicly posted information. Premium and Mass Market. You will notice the Tesla's come in lower that the mini Cooper, Mustang and Hyundai and jsut about tied with the Kia
Now one can compare with Consumer reports as well, determine what works for them, if it matters. Data as Jeff posted is important and the only reason for my posts.

 

[Torrid]

You should have seen the Toyota Cavalier I saw at a service drive through once. Apparently it was a JDM version of the Chevy Cavalier and even came in a TRD edition. The vehicle has Hawaii plates and was supposedly owned by a US Service member that bought it in Japan. 20k were made and only 2k were bought.


For some awful reason the 2 companies swapped badges for a while.



https://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/09/buy-toyota-badges-from-gm/

View attachment 206618

Yeah I'm aware of that one too. I just can't think of many brands that are as opposite as Toyota or Honda with GM. I know Nissan used to make the Passport for Honda too. Suzuki was another, but that was Geo and Chevrolet badged Suzukis.

Another that comes to mind is the VW Routan van which is a Chrysler Town & Country.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Crazy me: I really really really want an e-car for the 12-18-20 mile town runs from where we live. I mean 100% ideal, not needing to charge on the road, never go to the gas station.

Practical me: We want an e-car for the 12-18-20 mile town runs from where we live. I mean 100% ideal, only needing to charge at home, never go to the gas station.

BITOG me: I will never ever own an e-car for fear of mockery and hatred from BITOG folk.

Welcome to the Dark Side...

 

[JeffKeryk]

@alarmguy here's the stat that counts, from KBB.

The 10 Best-Selling Electric Vehicles of 2023 in the United States

Vehicle	Total Units Sold in 2023
Tesla Model Y	394,497
Tesla Model 3	220,910
Chevrolet Bolt EV/EUV	62,045
Ford Mustang Mach-E	40,771
Volkswagen ID.4	37,789
Hyundai Ioniq 5	33,918
Rivian R1S	24,783
Ford F-150 Lightning	24,165
Tesla Model X	23,015
BMW i4	22,583

 

[alarmguy]

@alarmguy here's the stat that counts, from KBB.

The 10 Best-Selling Electric Vehicles of 2023 in the United States

​

Vehicle	Total Units Sold in 2023
Tesla Model Y	394,497
Tesla Model 3	220,910
Chevrolet Bolt EV/EUV	62,045
Ford Mustang Mach-E	40,771
Volkswagen ID.4	37,789
Hyundai Ioniq 5	33,918
Rivian R1S	24,783
Ford F-150 Lightning	24,165
Tesla Model X	23,015
BMW i4	22,583

Why?
It has nothing to do with the previous posts. Your interpretation is because Tesla sells the most that it is the best.
Yet not based on the survey of owners.

BTW - since you used KBB as the company to use "stats" from. Here is their list of best EVs. Tesla is missing out of the top 3 in a number of places. I have nothing against Tesla. Think my posts have been more than fair. You are not battling with me, you're battling with the stats and data.
https://www.kbb.com/electric-car/

 

[JeffKeryk]

Why?
It has nothing to do with the previous posts. Your interpretation is because Tesla sells the most that it is the best.
Yet not based on the survey of owners.

Sorta. People vote with their pocketbooks. I will look for some other stuff, time permitting. All good bro.

 

[alarmguy]

Sorta. People vote with their pocketbooks. I will look for some other stuff, time permitting. All good bro.

I dont disagree but the polls are just opening on the ICE makers lines of EVs. Actually the model line ups arent even fully out yet.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I dont disagree but the polls are just opening on the ICE makers lines of EVs. Actually the model line ups arent even fully out yet.

Sure; EVs as a mass produced product, are in the infancy. Tesla implements as many as 20 changes per month. Many of these result in regular OTA updates. Our early car just got a range calculation mod and an auto windshield wiper operation mod.

Heck, the Toyota Prius changed the world; it was the best selling car in CA for years. It continues to improve as do other hybrids. Our RX450h F Sport gets better mileage than our beloved 2006 TSX 4 banger. I call it the ultimate Costco vehicle. It's a great SUV, Toyota quality and all, but from a tech standpoint it seems pretty dated in comparison.

 

[OVERKILL]

Sorta. People vote with their pocketbooks.

What does that say about people though?
- McDonalds sells the most burgers
- Bud Light is the top selling beer
- The top selling "maple syrups" are not in fact maple syrup
- Kraft dinner is a top selling product

Wilford Brimley wasn't doing diabetes commercials because American consumers make smart decisions.

My Cascade dishwasher pods don't say "DO NOT PUT IN MOUTH" on them because consumers are smart.

 

[JeffKeryk]

What does that say about people though?
- McDonalds sells the most burgers
- Bud Light is the top selling beer
- The top selling "maple syrups" are not in fact maple syrup
- Kraft dinner is a top selling product

Wilford Brimley wasn't doing diabetes commercials because American consumers make smart decisions.


My Cascade dishwasher pods don't say "DO NOT PUT IN MOUTH" on them because consumers are smart.

Well, you are comparing cheap foods to a fairly expensive car.
I certainly agree people, including me, don't always make the wisest purchasing choices. Personally the only thing I have bought in your list in the past 10 years is 2 boxes of Kraft Mac and Cheese, and I think they are still in the cupboard.

From a business standpoint, everything you named is a huge success. And, fortunately or unfortunately, they have a lot of customer satisfaction.
I suggest that the top selling vehicles sell for the same reason. Proven, long term customer satisfaction.

 

[OVERKILL]

Well, you are comparing cheap foods to a fairly expensive car.

We could pivot to other things that are higher cost, but it doesn't change the point being made.

I certainly agree people, including me, don't always make the wisest purchasing choices. Personally the only thing I have bought in your list in the past 10 years is 2 boxes of Kraft Mac and Cheese, and I think they are still in the cupboard.

And why did you buy it, what was the reasoning behind it?

From a business standpoint, everything you named is a huge success. And, fortunately or unfortunately, they have a lot of customer satisfaction.
I suggest that the top selling vehicles sell for the same reason. Proven, long term customer satisfaction.

But success doesn't make them good, unless you want to argue that McDonalds burgers are high quality food?

Name recognition and price are key drivers. McDonalds has both, as does Bud Light.

Name: Do you think most people buy iPhones because they are objectively better than the alternatives? Do you think they actually even compared the iPhone to alternatives or just make that choice because they know the Apple brand and their perception of it is that their products are upscale compared to other offerings?

Price: Do you think folks buying Chinese TP-link home gateways at Walmart are doing so because they are high quality, or because they are $50? If it doesn't melt in 3 years and they buy another, that's proven long-term customer satisfaction, that still doesn't mean the product is good, as the long list of CVE's shows.

A lot of people end up with the cheapest chunk of Chinese round and black that will get them down the road, and the shop that sells them those tires is keen on making these sales due to the higher margin.

Selling a lot of something doesn't make it good, that's a horrible metric for determining that specific quality. Bryston and McIntosh probably sell fewer amplifiers in a year than Walmart will move "TOPVISION" Chinese soundbars off the shelf in the next 10 minutes. If Miele sells 1/100th the fridges of LG, does that mean the LG fridges are good? Better than Miele?

 

[Torrid]

Name: Do you think most people buy iPhones because they are objectively better than the alternatives? Do you think they actually even compared the iPhone to alternatives or just make that choice because they know the Apple brand and their perception of it is that their products are upscale compared to other offerings?

Not to completely derail this but I do have an answer. It's that Androids dollar for dollar win the spec war, but still perform similarly or below the iPhone. That's what vertical integration does when it comes to designing specific software instead of using something modified off of the shelf for the operating system. That said I don't think the average person probably thinks of that and brand recognition and prior familiarity are likely the key factors. If you bought off the spec sheet alone almost no one would buy the iPhone.

That's not to say Tesla is the best product here. It just is the most known quantity in EVs. There's comfort in that for some people. It's the first brand that comes to mind when EVs are mentioned. Is it the perfect car? Certainly not, but it must have done something to get where it is today. It's possible the best all around designed car isn't popular. People need to know it's good and like enough about it to want to buy it. Just being good doesn't make it sell. I'd argue just like you that most of what people buy is mediocre crap. It's a level of quality that the majority consider acceptable for the price paid.

 

[JeffKeryk]

We could pivot to other things that are higher cost, but it doesn't change the point being made.

And why did you buy it, what was the reasoning behind it?

But success doesn't make them good, unless you want to argue that McDonalds burgers are high quality food?

Name recognition and price are key drivers. McDonalds has both, as does Bud Light.

Name: Do you think most people buy iPhones because they are objectively better than the alternatives? Do you think they actually even compared the iPhone to alternatives or just make that choice because they know the Apple brand and their perception of it is that their products are upscale compared to other offerings?

Price: Do you think folks buying Chinese TP-link home gateways at Walmart are doing so because they are high quality, or because they are $50? If it doesn't melt in 3 years and they buy another, that's proven long-term customer satisfaction, that still doesn't mean the product is good, as the long list of CVE's shows.

A lot of people end up with the cheapest chunk of Chinese round and black that will get them down the road, and the shop that sells them those tires is keen on making these sales due to the higher margin.

Selling a lot of something doesn't make it good, that's a horrible metric for determining that specific quality. Bryston and McIntosh probably sell fewer amplifiers in a year than Walmart will move "TOPVISION" Chinese soundbars off the shelf in the next 10 minutes. If Miele sells 1/100th the fridges of LG, does that mean the LG fridges are good? Better than Miele?

I suggest, again, you are comparing apples to oranges. The Model Y is not a cheap vehicle yet unseated the low priced Toyota Corolla. I believe you are picking extreme cases, not the whole story. Overall, people tend to buy what works for them, based on their use case.

I bought the Mac and Cheese because I like it better than real Mac and Cheese.

People buy McDonalds because they are cheaper than say, In and Out. And Mickey sure has a lot more restaurants... Cheap, fast food that is everywhere and you know what you are getting. That is a winning combination for many. McDonalds is the best at what they do. That does not necessarily mean they serve quality food.

I don't particularly like iPhones, but here are a few reasons others purchase them. Personally I think another reason people buy them is for status, almost like jewelry. A fancy watch, if you will.

• Ease of use: iPhones have a simple operating logic, with all apps launched from the home screen and settings found under one menu.
• Integration with other Apple devices: iPhones are known for their seamless integration with other Apple devices.
• Security and privacy: iPhones offer security features like facial or fingerprint authentication and prevent apps from tracking your activity online.
• Build quality: iPhones are known for their build quality, performance, and quality materials.
• Software updates: iPhones are known for their regular software updates provided by Apple.
• Resale value: iPhones tend to retain their value well, especially if they are well-maintained.
• Brand recognition: The exclusivity and prestige of the Apple brand also contribute to the higher price tag.

Selling a lot of a product does not necessarily make it good, nor does it necessarily make it a bad product. 2 things can be true at once.

 

[4WD]

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[Torrid]

My Cascade dishwasher pods don't say "DO NOT PUT IN MOUTH" on them because consumers are smart.

I scrolled past this too fast earlier and missed it. Great movie reference.

 

[OVERKILL]

I suggest, again, you are comparing apples to oranges.

I'm not, I'm giving a range of examples that underscore that there are certain things that drive purchase decisions and they often aren't directly linked to the quality of the product, though perceived quality can absolutely factor in.

The Model Y is not a cheap vehicle yet unseated the low priced Toyota Corolla. I believe you are picking extreme cases, not the whole story. Overall, people tend to buy what works for them, based on their use case.

The Model Y is more like the iPhone SE, because Tesla is like Apple. Tesla has cut costs with the 3 and Y where they can, just like Apple did with the SE. Tesla is synonymous with EV's, just like Apple is synonymous with smartphones. The Gigacasting (God I hate that name) for example, is designed as a cost saving measure, the single large screen, no HUD, the deletion of the turn signal stalk, these are all cost cutting measures. Make the product cheaper to produce, maintaining their, as you've stated many, MANY times, enviable profit margins.

Are people buying the 3/Y because all of these cost cutting measures make it a better vehicle than say the EV6 or the i4? Or are they doing so because when they think of EV, they think "Tesla!"?

Given the number of pickup trucks hauling air, which make up the largest share of vehicles sold in North America, I think the argument that people buy "what works for them" is fallacious, bordering on comically so. People buy what they want, and what they want is heavily influenced by advertising/marketing, perceived "status" and image...etc. The record levels of consumer debt and people living beyond their means does well to underscore this.

 

[y_p_w]

Are people buying the 3/Y because all of these cost cutting measures make it a better vehicle than say the EV6 or the i4? Or are they doing so because when they think of EV, they think "Tesla!"?

They've actually a pretty good job with the user interface. It obviously takes a bit of getting used to, but that can be said for getting into almost any car these days.

 

[Torrid]

I'm not, I'm giving a range of examples that underscore that there are certain things that drive purchase decisions and they often aren't directly linked to the quality of the product, though perceived quality can absolutely factor in.

The Model Y is more like the iPhone SE, because Tesla is like Apple. Tesla has cut costs with the 3 and Y where they can, just like Apple did with the SE. Tesla is synonymous with EV's, just like Apple is synonymous with smartphones. The Gigacasting (God I hate that name) for example, is designed as a cost saving measure, the single large screen, no HUD, the deletion of the turn signal stalk, these are all cost cutting measures. Make the product cheaper to produce, maintaining their, as you've stated many, MANY times, enviable profit margins.

Are people buying the 3/Y because all of these cost cutting measures make it a better vehicle than say the EV6 or the i4? Or are they doing so because when they think of EV, they think "Tesla!"?

Given the number of pickup trucks hauling air, which make up the largest share of vehicles sold in North America, I think the argument that people buy "what works for them" is fallacious, bordering on comically so.

Honestly the supposed cost cutting measures of the 3 and Y make them better vehicles than the S and X like I mentioned before. They're simpler which makes them less finicky in daily use. The EV6 may be a better vehicle. I don't like it as much, but that doesn't mean anything. It doesn't have the brand recognition of the Tesla and that's probably not going to help its sales, especially when the EV6 is nearly the same price and in some cases the more expensive of the two when optioned similarly.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I'm not, I'm giving a range of examples that underscore that there are certain things that drive purchase decisions and they often aren't directly linked to the quality of the product, though perceived quality can absolutely factor in.

The Model Y is more like the iPhone SE, because Tesla is like Apple. Tesla has cut costs with the 3 and Y where they can, just like Apple did with the SE. Tesla is synonymous with EV's, just like Apple is synonymous with smartphones. The Gigacasting (God I hate that name) for example, is designed as a cost saving measure, the single large screen, no HUD, the deletion of the turn signal stalk, these are all cost cutting measures. Make the product cheaper to produce, maintaining their, as you've stated many, MANY times, enviable profit margins.

Are people buying the 3/Y because all of these cost cutting measures make it a better vehicle than say the EV6 or the i4? Or are they doing so because when they think of EV, they think "Tesla!"?

Given the number of pickup trucks hauling air, which make up the largest share of vehicles sold in North America, I think the argument that people buy "what works for them" is fallacious, bordering on comically so. People buy what they want, and what they want is heavily influenced by advertising/marketing, perceived "status" and image...etc. The record levels of consumer debt and people living beyond their means does well to underscore this.

Your pickup analogy is well taken. I was referring to things like McDonalds. People don't necessarily buy what is best for them; they buy what they want; sometimes even as jewelry... I don't need a nice shiny double cab F-150 to go to Costco. Likewise no one needs a BMW, Corvette, MBZ, Tesla Model 3 Performance, you name it. Of course, if you hafta roll coal, a Bro Dozer does a better job than a Corolla or Model 3...

All good @OVERKILL

 

[OVERKILL]

They've actually a pretty good job with the user interface. It obviously takes a bit of getting used to, but that can be said for getting into almost any car these days.

I've driven them, the lack of a HUD drives me nuts, which would have been a logical inclusion if you aren't putting any of the information in the line of sight of the driver. The Mach-E doesn't have a HUD, but it has the data you need in the line of sight for the driver, so a better experience.

The lack of physical buttons is now, per my recent thread, going to be a safety rating hit in Europe. This is also done to cut cost, not because it's better for the user.