Honda fluid myth

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: yaris0128
So I suppose I shall stick with Honda MTF for my del sol. It must be special considering its clear color. But I will be doing the civic soon as well and that is getting Castrol's Multi-Vehicle ATF. For how much Honda wants for their ATF is insane. $13 a quart or $70 for a case but I paid $40 for the case worth of Castrol. The dealer wants $9 a quart for the MTF so its still cheaper to go that route than Castrol's Syntec anyway. But with how well their gear oil is performing I wouldnt doubt their AFT.


If you are using the 'new' Honda MTF Type-II in your older del sol, it's possibly too light, since the original Honda MTF was closer to a 30 multi-grade...the new Type-II is closer to a 20, IIRC.

I'm trying out Amsoil's M/T Synchromesh Fluid, currently, and put it in at 250,000 on the engine(if its accurate). So far, so good.

 

[barlowc]

Originally Posted By: yaris0128
For how much Honda wants for their ATF is insane. $13 a quart or $70 for a case

For those who really want Z1 but their local Honda stealer is charging an arm and a leg for it, check out your local GM dealer. They may carry AC Delco packaged Z1 (part # 22717466) which is used for the Saturn VUE with the Honda powertrain. I got it for $5/quart.

 

[yaris0128]

Thanks for that tip ltslimjim. For my del sol Im willing to go all out for to make that car happy. I know a lot of people are not having any problems using non-Honda gear oils so I will definately consider something better like Amsoil.

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: yaris0128
Thanks for that tip ltslimjim. For my del sol Im willing to go all out for to make that car happy. I know a lot of people are not having any problems using non-Honda gear oils so I will definately consider something better like Amsoil.


Whatever you do, please don't settle on motor oil like some have as 'permanent interval' fills. The Amsoil MTF is like a 5w30 according to their spec's. The S20 transmission in my Civic states 10w30 and 10w-40 are 'suitable' for use IF no Honda Genuine MTF is available as a TEMPORARY replacement.

I do not know if any dealers carry the original as an alternative from the Honda Type-II.

INDY posted in the VOA section of the forums about HG Type-II, it showed the Virgin state and used in his S2000 Honda, hard on the trans fluid, after a short time.

I believe he too stuck with and found better results using Amsoil MTF. According to another rep, if like a gear oil it'd be between a 70w-80. I have 'heard' good things about the new GM (Highly) Friction Modified MTF, cant recall exact phrasing lol, as well.

You may find this of help:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/virgin-honda-mtf.136756/

 

[yaris0128]

^
Wow that made Honda's current MTF look bad! People had ZERO confidence in the fluid. I understand somewhat because it is thinner than what older transmissions were designed for and that does concern me a lot.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Therefore, I'd only recommend HG Type-II MTF in apps that came with that from the factory, or specified the use of something in the 20 multi-grade viscosity range.

 

[yaris0128]

^
Seems like Honda needs to have an MTF available for owners of their older vehicles or state in their manuals a gear oil we can use thats not HG or motor oil. Seems like a good 75w90 would more than do the job here.

 

[ltslimjim]

I don't know if they carry the older HG MTF, but it's worth calling some of your local Dealership and asking their parts department. A website or two may still have the original fluid. Perhaps mix 1 quart of each?

I don't know 'what' a mechanic used that changed the MTF after I first bought this little Civic, but it did improve shifting more than the Amsoil product did. So, IDK if that was the new HG Type-II or the original, that he used. The catch was that the shifting became stiff and restrictive quickly with use, it had to be less than 5,000 miles or so before it felt like the friction modifiers had worn out(not even sure if that is how to describe it?).

So, if I wasn't using Amsoil's product for longevity and a more stable/comfortable overall feel, more than likely I'd use the HG again. Since that is all I have experience with so far in M/T equipped Honda vehicles, anyway.

 

[yaris0128]

What I find very strange is that a lot of MTF Ive seen is a typical oil color. But Honda is clear. There has to be something special there that makes the myth a myth worth talking about.

 

[ltslimjim]

I'm sure their FM-package is what makes it shift so well when you initially install it, but it simply doesn't last. I'd have to change it out every 5,000 miles. That's insane, perhaps mixing 1/2 quart of HG stuff with 1.5 Qts of Amsoil would work.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: yaris0128
What I find very strange is that a lot of MTF Ive seen is a typical oil color. But Honda is clear. There has to be something special there that makes the myth a myth worth talking about.


As near as I can reall, the Redline MT-90 fluid I used in my Corolla was clear. I could be wrong, but I do recall it being rather clear.

Every conventional gear lube I've seen, however, has been a brown/yellow/gold color.

 

[Mau]

You're talking about 2 different fluid types. MTF (Manual Transmission Fluid) and ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid).

With MTF you're fine with going non Honda, I personally am running GM Synchromesh Friction Modified fluid (fixes my 3rd gear pop out)

With ATF it's PREFERRED to stay with Honda brand of fluids however a lot of people have been saying good things about Amsoil UATF and Redline DW-4 and Type F racing. In my Auto honda's I stick with Honda DW-1 and just change it more often, shifts are still smooth and crisp and no issues. Sourcing after market fluid such as Amsoil and Redline is a PITA and I can get the Honda fluid for almost wholesale costs so its a no brainer.

 

[yaris0128]

^
Yes Im talking about both fluids. My civic is an auto and since I dont exactly care for it too much it can have the cheaper import multi-vehicle ATF from Castrol. Im not willing to go all out for a car I could give a [censored] about. As long as it runs for a year or two more Im good. Been looking for its replacement for a while now. But luckily it has never needed any repairs so Im getting my money out of it and may keep it even after its been replaced as a winter beater.

 

[bigdawg74]

Yaris, I don't know how much shipping would be, but H and A accessories dot com has DW-1 for $68.17 for a case of 12, as well as Honda MTF for $5.78 a quart. If you have 3 vehicles in your stable, why not sell the Civic?

 

[Bror Jace]

Someone above mentioned above that using 75W-90 gear oil would approximate Honda's older MTF formula. No, no, no!

75W-90 gear oil has a viscosity of about 15-16 cSt. Old Honda MTF was about 10-11 cSt. The best replacement is Amsoil MTF (5w30). I used to use Red Line Oil MTL (they labelled it a GL4 70W-80) ... which was good ... but the Amsoil stuff is better, more consistent. I've had it in my '06 Civic for the past 5 years now.

I have also heard from other S2000 owners that were sold CRV Dual-Pump fluid for use in their S2000 torsen differential. They died soon thereafter. Honda's insistence on Honda fluids is more than just annoying ... it can do real damage.

The factory fill in my S2000's diffy was RUINED after just 14,000 miles. I switched the Chevron Delo ESI 80W-90 ... we'll see how that goes.

 

[ItsMeHank]

Originally Posted By: TomYoung
This is an interesting post. I think it is worthwhile to look at this issue by the transmission type. If you are driving a manual Honda product, which I am assuming is the case with the original poster's del Sol, I see no reason not to use whatever fluid (within specification) that you please. These manual transmissions are world class and will weather incredible amounts of use and abuse.

On the other hand, Honda automatic transmissions have been a major problem in the nineties and in this century. I have a 2001 TL which had a new transmission installed at 40k miles. My brother had an 01 CL that went through two warranty transmissions. Just last week, a friend traded in a perfect '01 Odyssey, running great at 193k, except for a trashed transmission (which was a repacement). It's not just my experience, this can be confirmed by googling "Honda Transmission Problems." There have been lawsuits galore. In my opinion, Honda has done a fair job taking care of customers and has instituted design changes that mean you can buy a new car and likely be okay.

Which brings me to the fluid - given the risk, and Honda's admonitions, why not stick with the Honda ATF, which I think is pretty good stuff.


Z1 is pretty good stuff? That is so completely wrong and THE REASON that there are so many honda/acura transmission failures, PERIOD. It is due to the fact that they put so much friction modifier in it that the clutch plates slip and spin like crazy during shifts leading to quick wear. Using Z1 will cause a transmission failure between 40,000 and 150,000 mile I don't care if you change it out every 10k miles. Probably in some attempt to get around a class action lawsuit, honda stubbornly swears by it although they recently came out with a new ATF that, low and behold, has less friction modifier!

My '05 acura TL had 80,000 mile and was slipping. Once it starts slipping, you are dead spinning for a transmission failure. At the Acurazine forum, we found 2 issues. One being the 3rd and 4th analog pressure sensors, which lose accuracy, and the Z1. We all did 3x3's with Redline Type F Racing fluid (Although being cautious people started out by using Redline D4 but realized there was more of a benefit to the Type F). On our TL's, the torque converter lets off during shifts allowing the plates to make contact with no torque. It re-engages torque when is determines the shift is complete. With the slippery Z1, it wouldn't complete the shifts during the off period and resulted in a sloppy shift and wear. The Type F leads to an immediate shift resulting in less downtime and a precise, quick shift.

If you take anything from this, it is Honda Z1 sucks and should not be used unless you want a failed transmission. Do the math, it's not just blind luck that they are all going bad and the transmissions are engineered just fine.

 

[Boss302fan]

Most likely, I will never buy another Honda...

 

[ItsMeHank]

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my Acura and feel it will last forever. Just don't be sold on any companies OEM fluid. I hate people that say, "Well if they oil wasn't perfect than Honda(or GM, Toyota, ect) would not put in in their cars!"

They are not oil companies and make a product that makes sense to them profit wise. A company like Redline or Amsoil doesn't make cars and only cares about how well their oil works.

 

[BrianL]

Originally Posted By: ItsMeHank
Z1 is pretty good stuff? That is so completely wrong and THE REASON that there are so many honda/acura transmission failures, PERIOD. It is due to the fact that they put so much friction modifier in it that the clutch plates slip and spin like crazy during shifts leading to quick wear. Using Z1 will cause a transmission failure between 40,000 and 150,000 mile I don't care if you change it out every 10k miles. Probably in some attempt to get around a class action lawsuit, honda stubbornly swears by it although they recently came out with a new ATF that, low and behold, has less friction modifier!

My '05 acura TL had 80,000 mile and was slipping. Once it starts slipping, you are dead spinning for a transmission failure. At the Acurazine forum, we found 2 issues. One being the 3rd and 4th analog pressure sensors, which lose accuracy, and the Z1. We all did 3x3's with Redline Type F Racing fluid (Although being cautious people started out by using Redline D4 but realized there was more of a benefit to the Type F). On our TL's, the torque converter lets off during shifts allowing the plates to make contact with no torque. It re-engages torque when is determines the shift is complete. With the slippery Z1, it wouldn't complete the shifts during the off period and resulted in a sloppy shift and wear. The Type F leads to an immediate shift resulting in less downtime and a precise, quick shift.

If you take anything from this, it is Honda Z1 sucks and should not be used unless you want a failed transmission. Do the math, it's not just blind luck that they are all going bad and the transmissions are engineered just fine.


Why is everyone ignoring DW-1? Isn't there really not much of a reason to talk about using Z1 anymore?


Seems like it's already pretty well known that Z1 stinks:

http://www.piloteers.org/forums/18-maintenance/26454-atf-z1-vs-atf-dw1-2.html
"My hunch is Honda realized Z1 was destroying the transmissions. "

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2039939/
"In other words, any good syn ATF(Maxlife, Amsoil, etc)would work better then Z1... Honda finally figured out what some of us already knew, that Z1 ATF sucks. Z1 needs to be drained every 15K miles or sooner then later, your transmission is going to take a"


Strangely:
http://www.civicforums.com/forums/171-ge...da-atf-dw1.html
"gearbox - Super Moderator" claims synthetic ATF (like DW-1) causes failures in older transmissions.

 

[bigdawg74]

Originally Posted By: ItsMeHank

Z1 is pretty good stuff? That is so completely wrong and THE REASON that there are so many honda/acura transmission failures, PERIOD. It is due to the fact that they put so much friction modifier in it that the clutch plates slip and spin like crazy during shifts leading to quick wear. Using Z1 will cause a transmission failure between 40,000 and 150,000 mile I don't care if you change it out every 10k miles. Probably in some attempt to get around a class action lawsuit, honda stubbornly swears by it although they recently came out with a new ATF that, low and behold, has less friction modifier!

If you take anything from this, it is Honda Z1 sucks and should not be used unless you want a failed transmission. Do the math, it's not just blind luck that they are all going bad and the transmissions are engineered just fine.


Hmmm...I've had no problems whatsoever w/ Z1 in my Accords. Will be using DW-1 now that Z1 is obsolete. Sounds like you have some sort of personal agenda against Honda. You have just as much chance of transmission failure using aftermarket fluids as you do OEM, IMHO.