Honda Crank Bolt Tightening - comparing two methods

[Number_35]

@NinjaCivic, welcome to BITOG, and thanks for resurrecting this thread.

Strangely enough, I had no problem removing the harmonic balancer bolt on either of the two Hondas ('77 Accord and '88ish Accord) I've changed a timing belt on. But those are both a long time ago, and perhaps Honda has changed their practice.

But anyway, I have used a couple of methods on stubborn HB bolts. The problem was finding a way to immobilize the engine so turning the bolt wouldn't simply turn the engine over.

1. 1997 Mazda MPV 3.0 V6

I took a piece of scrap plywood and placed it such that one side rested on the ground in front of the HB.

Drilled a hole for access to the HB bolt. Drilled two smaller holes and bolted the plywood to the HB (which had a drilled and tapped hole on either side of the bolt).

The plywood stopped the HB from turning. The bolt broke loose fine.


2. 2005 or so Mitsubishi Lancer

My friend's son's car. We were absolutely stumped. Just couldn't budge the bolt. Finally, with great reluctance, we tried the nuclear option. After thinking about it and reasoning it out about 10 times, we put the socket on the bolt, put a breaker bar on the socket, and bumped the starter. That broke the bolt loose immediately.

Scary, and I haven't had to do it since.


3. 1990 Mazda MPV 2.6

This to remove the timing chain cover, not do a timing belt. But anyway, it was before I had my impact gun.

I pulled the starter motor, wrapped a rag around the end of a crowbar, and jammed the ring gear with the crowbar. Put a section of pipe over the breaker bar, and cranked on the pipe with my R hand while holding the crowbar with my L.

It worked, and didn't damage the ring gear. Phew!

 

[14Accent]

This makes me love my trick for Subaru EJ crank bolts, which are also torqued to somewhere around 160-170 lb. ft.

I remove the radiator fans in preparation, then put my 22mm socket on a 1/2" breaker bar and lower the car down until the breaker bar is braced against the ground on the left side of the motor. Something like this:

O
\
\
------------
Terrible drawing, but the O is the crank bolt/socket and the \ is the breaker bar. The ----- is the floor. Once that's done, I hop in and bump the starter quickly. As the engine spins clockwise (looking from the front), the force of the crank pulley turning while the breaker bar holds the crank bolt immediately loosens said bolt. No muss no fuss.

To torque on installation, I have a helper use a large adjustable jaw pliers to hold the pulley while I tighten to spec.

 

[zzyzzx]

That will make removing the crank pulley bolt a bit easier, thats the hardest part of replacing the timing belt. As I recall the older 4 cyl F 22, and F 23 motors were 181 Ft. lbs also.

I recall degree torque was said to be more accurate, but I have no clue!

Honda still uses timing belts???

 

[atikovi]

Rather replace ONE timing belt and tensioner every 100,000 miles then three timing chains, three tensioners, half dozen guides, every 150,000 miles. (GM 3.6L, Ford 3.5L EcoBoost)

 

[Silver]

I've read that angle torque values provide for a more accurate tightening since you can't (well, not as easily) goof up an angle, but a torque wrench may be out of spec or affected by less than direct force on the bolt.

 

[repairman54]

Did a timing belt years ago on my sisters old '80's Hundog. Crank bolt was so tight even with manual trans in gear and foot on the brake it would turn the crank. Impacts I had wouldn't faze it. Wound up getting a big Rigid strap wrench to hold the pulley and a pipe on a breaker bar, that did the trick.

 

[UncleDave]

I am more fascinated than concerned. I just thought it was interesting how the final torque measured from turning 60 degs falls below the prior spec of 181.

You answered the question I never wanted to do the work on to find out - thanks!

 

[UncleDave]

Cool wrench - how's that work?

You set a degree and a ft/lb
then - pull to a number and zero the degree counter and pull till it buzzes or clicks or something?

 

[ctechbob]

This makes me love my trick for Subaru EJ crank bolts, which are also torqued to somewhere around 160-170 lb. ft.

I remove the radiator fans in preparation, then put my 22mm socket on a 1/2" breaker bar and lower the car down until the breaker bar is braced against the ground on the left side of the motor. Something like this:

O
\
\
------------
Terrible drawing, but the O is the crank bolt/socket and the \ is the breaker bar. The ----- is the floor. Once that's done, I hop in and bump the starter quickly. As the engine spins clockwise (looking from the front), the force of the crank pulley turning while the breaker bar holds the crank bolt immediately loosens said bolt. No muss no fuss.

To torque on installation, I have a helper use a large adjustable jaw pliers to hold the pulley while I tighten to spec.

Yep, I've used the starter bump on both of my J-Series cars. Harder to do on the Acura since it is a one-touch start car, so you have to be fast with the key, but still doable.

Will be interesting to see if the Acura comes back apart here in another year or so. I'm going to do the Timing belt a little early since I want to do the oil pump and all the other lower end seals soon.

 

[The Critic]

Cool wrench - how's that work?

You set a degree and a ft/lb
then - pull to a number and zero the degree counter and pull till it buzzes or clicks or something?

You set a degree. When you are done, it displays the actual angle turned plus the ft-lbs equivalent.

 

[bullwinkle]

I did my brother’s ‘01 Accord 2.3 timing belt & seals recently-my Aircat 1100 1/2” impact, along with plain old Sunex impact, using the Airkeg (so I wouldn’t have to take the air compressor outside) took that bolt off INSTANTLY! It appeared to be a JDM engine, all timing parts were marked Honda. O’Reilly actually rents the holding tool and a 250 ft.-lb. torque wrench, so snugging up the bolt with the Milwaukee M18 electric impact & checking with the torque wrench was actually pretty easy. I’ve fought with enough harmonic balancer bolts in my mechanical lifetime, around 40 years or so-there is NO SUBSTITUTE for raw power and good sockets!

 

[paulo57509]

The crank bolt for the Legend isn't on their very tight - 83 ft-lb.

The worst crank damper bolt I ever had to remove was on my 4-cylinder '87 Camry. The breaker bar against the ground didn't work; the engine just rocked in the opposite direction. I had to borrow a 3/4" drive impact to get it loose.

 

[artbuc]

I've read that angle torque values provide for a more accurate tightening since you can't (well, not as easily) goof up an angle, but a torque wrench may be out of spec or affected by less than direct force on the bolt.

Not correct. Honda is looking for a certain clamping force which is a function of how much the bolt is stretched. Angle will accurately stretch the bolt to the right spec. The measured torque will vary depending on how clean the threads are, how they are lubed, etc.

 

[Charmet37]

Not always. I have 2 name brand 1/2 impact guns and still can't get a Honda pulley off with that socket! I rounded the socket out on the last one. My IR261 takes them off easily.

I agree, You gotta have a strong impact to get that bolt off, I used the lisle socket and still had a tough fight.

 

[drowned12]

I got a different number than OP did. I was maxing out a 250ft-lbs torque wrench and still not at 60 degrees with a new bolt and properly oil-lubricated threads and top surface of the washer.

I don't have the exact number because I couldn't measure that high but I'd say it was closer to 280 ft-lbs needed.

My conclusion is that it probably isn't *that* sensitive since I don't think anyone has reported their crank pulley coming lose on its own.

Anyways while I'm here let's help Google out and put the "2012 Honda Accord V6 crankshaft pulley installation instructions":

 

[SubLGT]

Maybe your torque wrench is out of calibration.

 

[JHZR2]

I got a different number than OP did. I was maxing out a 250ft-lbs torque wrench and still not at 60 degrees with a new bolt and properly oil-lubricated threads and top surface of the washer.

I don't have the exact number because I couldn't measure that high but I'd say it was closer to 280 ft-lbs needed.

My conclusion is that it probably isn't *that* sensitive since I don't think anyone has reported their crank pulley coming lose on its own.

Anyways while I'm here let's help Google out and put the "2012 Honda Accord V6 crankshaft pulley installation instructions":

View attachment 216252

I was going to ask about this… my understanding is that the FSM specifies an oil lubricated bolt. Did the values change when that was specified? Or has it always called for an oil lubricated bolt?

 

[dumkid]

I had to buy the crank hold down tool for my first Odyssey timing belt. And a 3/4 inch breaker bar.

If the timing belt has been replaced before the bolt isn't as tight as from the factory

I just put one breaker bar holding the balancer with the counter hold tool and then put an extension on the bolt so the other breaker bar stuck out past the fender.

 

[drowned12]

I was going to ask about this… my understanding is that the FSM specifies an oil lubricated bolt. Did the values change when that was specified? Or has it always called for an oil lubricated bolt?

Always calls for a lubricated bolt, because it gives a more consistent clamping force. Torque measurements are an assumption that the friction on the threads is achieving the clamping force which is why angle measurements are way more accurate, because then you know the amount of bolt stretch based on the thread pitch (1 turn = thread pitch stretch). The default Honda calls for is engine oil but some people use antiseize.

Lubrication should make the torque measurement go down to achieve the same angle. In an extreme, if there was zero friction it would take zero torque to get the bolt to turn 60 degrees. The only way I see OP hitting 150 ft-lbs is if he somehow had very little friction (even though I used oil on the threads) or maybe the crank was turning a bit before the holder tool engaged and he really only achieved 45 degrees of angle. I use sharpie marks and going from hex-point to hex-point on the bolt and pulley.

I had to buy the crank hold down tool for my first Odyssey timing belt. And a 3/4 inch breaker bar.

If the timing belt has been replaced before the bolt isn't as tight as from the factory

I just put one breaker bar holding the balancer with the counter hold tool and then put an extension on the bolt so the other breaker bar stuck out past the fender.

Oh yeah I didn't mess around. I used 3/4" drive extensions to get out past the fender and a jackstand to hold that deal up while I reefed on it with my full weight on a 1/2" drive clicker torque wrench. For the holder tool I used a 1/2" ratchet wetched against the lower control arm. 3/8" extensions totalling 24 inches was already twisting a lot at the initial 47-ft-lbs.

The first time I did it I used a torque multiplier 3:1 so that's way easier to hit 60 degrees. Second time around I didn't use the multiplier where I know it's about 250 ft-lbs.

In both to get the bolt off I used the Lisle heavy socket with the M18 High Torque impact. That's the "negotiations have broken down" impact....everything else I just use 3/8" stuff.

 

[RooflessVW]

I've always wondered:

What's with the stupidly high crank bolt torque specs? Why not a dab of 242 and a reasonable spec?

Some cars have multiple crank bolts on the pulley, just like the back of the crank.