I wouldnt say that, I can easily smell what I think is burnt clutchpack friction material. It has a very disctinct smell. That ATF looks fried, I'd change it asap. IIRC, The Civic transmission from the 99+ era were prone to failure at around 100-120K
Honda Brown ATF
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I wouldnt say that, I can easily smell what I think is burnt clutchpack friction material. It has a very disctinct smell. That ATF looks fried, I'd change it asap. IIRC, The Civic transmission from the 99+ era were prone to failure at around 100-120K
The 01+ Civic transmissions last a long time when the fluid is replaced at least periodically. The reason why one must be careful about making assumptions from fluid odor as someone fluids will produce unusual/unfamiliar odors that may be confused for burned odors, when the fluid itself isn't burned.
Firstly Pablo is correct, what is needed is a used oil analysis.
The fluid doesn't look that bad to me but if there is a used oil analysis we can have a more useful discussion.
Smell can be an indicator but only if you know what you are smelling. Critic you are correct. Try smelling even new oil comparing DEXRON-VI, ATF+4 and Mercedes 7-speed fluid.
The fluid doesn't look that bad to me but if there is a used oil analysis we can have a more useful discussion.
Smell can be an indicator but only if you know what you are smelling. Critic you are correct. Try smelling even new oil comparing DEXRON-VI, ATF+4 and Mercedes 7-speed fluid.
Thanks Critic for the scan!
>>>"even if it smells burnt"
It just seems like a no brainer to me, if it looks bad and smells bad, drain and refill. I still like the white blotter test. I realize it's not rocket science. But it sure won't hurt the transmission either, and it's only 3 quarts!!!
>>>"even if it smells burnt"
It just seems like a no brainer to me, if it looks bad and smells bad, drain and refill. I still like the white blotter test. I realize it's not rocket science. But it sure won't hurt the transmission either, and it's only 3 quarts!!!
You guys take too much out of context. Smell comparison with a synthetic and trying to say a different ATF is a synthetic is MEANINGLESS because of smell. Max, where is it mentioned that the fluid smelled burnt? It smelled like M1 doesn't mean its a synthetic.
The above TSB is for transmission debug. Why not reuse the ATF that is OK? or what is it OK for? testing purposes? Dig into the details why that TSB is there, for those complaining about transmission performance. Strain the fluid. If it looks good, refill with new fluid. Wow, so even though the ATF is good, we're performing a drain/refill. Funny, makes you wonder where TSB tech writers' heads are. Don't maintain your transmission. But, we will maintain it during the debug after you complain about it. If we don't find anything wrong, you go home with a drain/refill! If we find something wrong, we send out the paint strainer with the old transmission
They'll try hard to use the strainer's contents to blame the supplier for an inferior part but not their own 'weak' requirements for some transmission components.
So I'm crazy for recommending a 10k drain/refill intervals. But, you now want to perform 3 back to back drain/refills. My crazy method would've gotten you to 30k. You're only at 20k
Drive the vehicle until the transmission pops. Consumerism is alive and well. Why even worry about the ATF condition if that was the plan?
The above TSB is for transmission debug. Why not reuse the ATF that is OK? or what is it OK for? testing purposes? Dig into the details why that TSB is there, for those complaining about transmission performance. Strain the fluid. If it looks good, refill with new fluid. Wow, so even though the ATF is good, we're performing a drain/refill. Funny, makes you wonder where TSB tech writers' heads are. Don't maintain your transmission. But, we will maintain it during the debug after you complain about it. If we don't find anything wrong, you go home with a drain/refill! If we find something wrong, we send out the paint strainer with the old transmission
So I'm crazy for recommending a 10k drain/refill intervals. But, you now want to perform 3 back to back drain/refills. My crazy method would've gotten you to 30k. You're only at 20k
Drive the vehicle until the transmission pops. Consumerism is alive and well. Why even worry about the ATF condition if that was the plan?
Yes a complete drain and fill 3 times (its what the manual says)at 30k instead of 120k thats recomended, not just draining the sump every 10k to take out 1/3 of what fluid is in there.Quote:
unDummy, You guys take too much out of context. Smell comparison with a synthetic and trying to say a different ATF is a synthetic is MEANINGLESS because of smell. Max, where is it mentioned that the fluid smelled burnt? It smelled like M1 doesn't mean its a synthetic.
The above TSB is for transmission debug. Why not reuse the ATF that is OK? or what is it OK for? testing purposes? Dig into the details why that TSB is there, for those complaining about transmission performance. Strain the fluid. If it looks good, refill with new fluid. Wow, so even though the ATF is good, we're performing a drain/refill. Funny, makes you wonder where TSB tech writers' heads are. Don't maintain your transmission. But, we will maintain it during the debug after you complain about it. If we don't find anything wrong, you go home with a drain/refill! If we find something wrong, we send out the paint strainer with the old transmissionThey'll try hard to use the strainer's contents to blame the supplier for an inferior part but not their own 'weak' requirements for some transmission components.
So I'm crazy for recommending a 10k drain/refill intervals. But, you now want to perform 3 back to back drain/refills. My crazy method would've gotten you to 30k. You're only at 20k
Drive the vehicle until the transmission pops. Consumerism is alive and well. Why even worry about the ATF condition if that was the plan?
Drive it to 120k is what the dealer said, and good advice if I have a problem transmission why prolong (feeding it 3 qts every 10k doesn't guaranty anything) it, by feeding it fluid so it fails just out of warranty
Quote:
The above TSB is for transmission debug. Why not reuse the ATF that is OK? or what is it OK for? testing purposes? Dig into the details why that TSB is there, for those complaining about transmission performance. Strain the fluid. If it looks good, refill with new fluid. Wow, so even though the ATF is good, we're performing a drain/refill. Funny, makes you wonder where TSB tech writers' heads are. Don't maintain your transmission. But, we will maintain it during the debug after you complain about it. If we don't find anything wrong, you go home with a drain/refill! If we find something wrong, we send out the paint strainer with the old transmissionThey'll try hard to use the strainer's contents to blame the supplier for an inferior part but not their own 'weak' requirements for some transmission components( and unmet ATF longevity/filtering requirements concerning their own 4and 5 speed ATs esp 1998 - 2005.)
EXACTLY .
So I'm crazy for recommending a 10k drain/refill intervals. But, you now want to perform 3 back to back drain/refills. My crazy method would've gotten you to 30k. You're only at 20k
No uD , you 're not crazy , you're just a whole lot wiser and way better at using the same amount of ATF/$ for DESIRABLE effect on a transmission that can use all the help it can get.
This part of the discussion here is very similar to the other thread we had going a month or two earlier - ,"Gee Johnny" , - " should I waste 44 -48% of my fluid every xyz miles to get 86 - 88.5% new fluid in BECAUSE THE OEM SAYS SO
or is there a more intelligent use of the same amount of fluid over the same period of time ?"
Of course , the other error here ( not uD in any way ) is that if you read Hondas INSTRUCTIONS THOROUGHLY (typically the follow up paragraph after instructing "three in a row" ) you will see that they want FOUR partial drain and fills NOT THREE so the better way is every 7.5K NOT 10K in regards to mileage and more intelligent use of fluid.
Even "their" procedure could be adjusted and improved , - as it takes very little effort to get to a 50-55% or more partial drain amount which then would be a little bit more efficient with ATF AND could save some time by allowing 3 larger rather than 4 smaller .
The "goal" here has been and continues to appear to be approx. a 7/8s replacement amount (87.5%) - which is the old industry "generally accepted" effective min. % under any number of scenarios .
In my book , given the glacial pace of AT "IMPROVEMENT"at AHM ,( only thing slower AND dumber would be TMC engine "improvement") , their treatment of owners in warranty/goodwill situations with legitimate filtration/cooling upgrades AND Hondas unwillingness to revise maintenance schedules I would say we are at least 7 years overdue for a Honda Z-2 ATF product .
As always , or maybe more accurately , in todays world its always a good idea to know when to disobey an unlawful order or a OEM whose head is evidently stuck somewhere in something a lot darker than sand .
Wrong. Honda only recommends ONE drain and refill as part of a routine service. They multiple drain and refill routine is only necessary in the event that the transmission is contaminated with an incompatible fluid.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB16&Number=522498
Critic, so whats the point? A full flush, regardless of reason, is equivalent to 4 drain/refills vs 3 drain/refills. So, readjusting the single drain/refill intervals earlier makes more sense for more thorough ATF maintenance.
IMO, any timely maintenance is better then no maintenance. And, timely maintenance is better then wasting for catastrophe and expecting a flush to fix it.
The point I'm trying to make, especially when a drainplug/dipstick are involved, that it is better to start some simple regular maintenance vs. waiting for the fluid to look bad or the transmission to perform horribly.
IMO, any timely maintenance is better then no maintenance. And, timely maintenance is better then wasting for catastrophe and expecting a flush to fix it.
The point I'm trying to make, especially when a drainplug/dipstick are involved, that it is better to start some simple regular maintenance vs. waiting for the fluid to look bad or the transmission to perform horribly.
Point is to set g20oh straight. I was only trying to correct the information so that people may understand what Honda truly wants done in their eyes.
Whether or not you should follow it (or whether I follow it) was not the point of my post.
The Critic is right on.
As others have stated in this thread ... the Honda's have a nice drain/fill plug. Use it whenever you wish. I use mine every 15k in my 05 Odyssey.
If it is not acceptable to change your ATF that often, do as others have done, and go a different route than Z1.
You can open a thread and beat that dead horse a little more.
When Mola used to post, I remeber he said the same .. i.e. If there is a transmission plug, use it.
In summary, I would:
Never dream of 120K
At minimum drain/fill 30k
Drain/fill X2 every third cycle
Not worry at all about color
Burnt smell is BAD and you will know it if you smell it
I myself only use Z1, but again ... that horse is DEAD.
As others have stated in this thread ... the Honda's have a nice drain/fill plug. Use it whenever you wish. I use mine every 15k in my 05 Odyssey.
If it is not acceptable to change your ATF that often, do as others have done, and go a different route than Z1.
You can open a thread and beat that dead horse a little more.
When Mola used to post, I remeber he said the same .. i.e. If there is a transmission plug, use it.
In summary, I would:
Never dream of 120K
At minimum drain/fill 30k
Drain/fill X2 every third cycle
Not worry at all about color
Burnt smell is BAD and you will know it if you smell it
I myself only use Z1, but again ... that horse is DEAD.
Critic ,
Once again you've added a topic and then mixed topics in your reply to a post and evidently , also once again lost track of the original topic(s) .
The original topic (my post) is not "routine maintenance"( your post is the first use of that word in this entire thread) , it is how to more efficiently use (for better effect) the same amount of fluid ONCE the decision has been made TO "FLUSH" as Morepower the OP has done .
(See post #6 in this thread and the post above uDs post that I replied to).
Of course , to do that , you have to correctly understand that that method involves "a drop and fill" x4 NOT x3 so thats mentioned as well .
All of this is in support of uDs post of identical logic W/O the method correction ie 3 back to back@30k is inferior to 1 every 10k x3 . (uD has just stated the general case).
I have inserted some additional text in what you quoted of mine to help you out with your error .
Now that we have you corrected on that , lets shift topics to the one you just introduced , "routine maintenance" as per Honda and as you discussed on the thread you just linked.
I think you have made an interesting "catch" or point on what they say and I believe you correctly "read" their text as written but I COMPLETELY disagree with your implicit assumptions and therefore your conclusions .
If you can read between the lines it takes all the "humor" out of a ludicrous situation which , of course , makes it much worse .
Worth noting , Another poster on your earlier thread commented along the lines that if an owner follows that schedule they will probably be replacing an AT before much fluid .
Having said that , I have no idea exactly how it went wrong or what they were smoking over there but .....
One possibility of many is that they didn't write what they intended .....
Now with that in mind , maybe we could do something really constructive together for a change .
I'm trying to think of any OEM AT ANYTIME with ANY AT who ever EVEN suggested that satisfactory AT performance and service life could be accomplished with such a small amount of ATF - any way you want to define that .
Maybe you can think of one , I can't even come close .
My apologies, you're right. I thought you were referring to the flush being the sole approved maintenance procedure, but after re-reading, you weren't.
Well, there are a number of manufacturers that specify ATF to be lifetime fill under normal service...GM comes to mind. Their 4T40/4T45E automatics seem to last well over 150k miles, often on the original oil fill.
But there's one little disclaimer that a lot of people overlook with regards to lifetime transmission fills. While they may not recommend a fluid change at a specific interval, there is the "inspect fluid" requirement every so often, usually at every other oil change or so. It is under the assumption that if one finds something seriously wrong during a routine fluid inspection (starbucks ATF, skunk smelling), that the fluid be changed.
G20ooh, thanks for clearing this thread up. I failed woefully!
But, even though threads commonly have topic changes, it is good to note that Honda considers 4 drain/refills as equivalent to a flush, regardless whether the old fluid is correct old tired OEM ATF or wrongly installed DexronIII.
Since I can't get people to consider a 20k or 30k intervals as barely acceptable, when I recommend 10k intervals, I also get the same response from members(regardless of forum). Yep, my recommendations are crazy.
Mentioning that a 7.5k drain/refill would be equivalent to a 30k flush is a simple point worth making and should be noted by all. I was simply being less obsessive with my original 10k recommendation and the 2 drain/refills for the thread starter to 'catch up' with my what I consider a very simple interval.
Its not too hard to pull a drainplug every year or 6-months depending on how much driving you do. Even at dealer bloated ATF prices, 3 quarts($20) isn't going to put you in the poor house. If you can afford the car, why not maintain it? Besides ATF, 2 other fluids commonly neglectd are the brake and steering.
Here's an example: I can remove, rebuild for $250, and reinstall my Toyotas transmission in an afternoon. Now, with my skill set and experience, feel free to wonder why my last 4 ATF drain/refills were at ~5000 miles(6 months) typically at the same time of my oil changes.
Usually transmissions cost $2000-$5000 to replace.
If you can double or triple its life with very cheap and simple maintenance, why wouldn't you? I think paying $2k for a transmission every ~100k miles is crazy. It'll last 300k miles or more with a couple hundred bucks worth of maintenance.
And, in my original reply, I did mention a used oil analysis on the fluid. I can flush my transmissions for the cost of a used oil analysis. If budget only allows one, I'd recommend new fluid over the used oil analysis any day.
But, even though threads commonly have topic changes, it is good to note that Honda considers 4 drain/refills as equivalent to a flush, regardless whether the old fluid is correct old tired OEM ATF or wrongly installed DexronIII.
Since I can't get people to consider a 20k or 30k intervals as barely acceptable, when I recommend 10k intervals, I also get the same response from members(regardless of forum). Yep, my recommendations are crazy.
Mentioning that a 7.5k drain/refill would be equivalent to a 30k flush is a simple point worth making and should be noted by all. I was simply being less obsessive with my original 10k recommendation and the 2 drain/refills for the thread starter to 'catch up' with my what I consider a very simple interval.
Its not too hard to pull a drainplug every year or 6-months depending on how much driving you do. Even at dealer bloated ATF prices, 3 quarts($20) isn't going to put you in the poor house. If you can afford the car, why not maintain it? Besides ATF, 2 other fluids commonly neglectd are the brake and steering.
Here's an example: I can remove, rebuild for $250, and reinstall my Toyotas transmission in an afternoon. Now, with my skill set and experience, feel free to wonder why my last 4 ATF drain/refills were at ~5000 miles(6 months) typically at the same time of my oil changes.
Usually transmissions cost $2000-$5000 to replace.
If you can double or triple its life with very cheap and simple maintenance, why wouldn't you? I think paying $2k for a transmission every ~100k miles is crazy. It'll last 300k miles or more with a couple hundred bucks worth of maintenance.
And, in my original reply, I did mention a used oil analysis on the fluid. I can flush my transmissions for the cost of a used oil analysis. If budget only allows one, I'd recommend new fluid over the used oil analysis any day.
Well, my 02 Accord V6 AT ate the dust last month. Had 135K on it, but it was all highway miles. Was really, REALLy disappointed with that. Put a big ding on Honda's armour to me. I changed the ATF out at every oil change, 12K miles, the 3 quart drop. I'd notice different colors and smells at almost every drop. I don't think it made a difference. BTW, after complaining, Honda did agree to buy me a new AT and install it for 500 dollars. Couldn't argue, but buying a 06 Accord last year probably didn't hurt things either.
morepower:
I believe most Honda automatic transmissions are recirculating with no filter. They are among the easiest transmissions to change fluid; it's easier than an oil change. I've heard some of the new Hondas have a transmission filter and you'll have to drop the pan; I looked up the 2005 Civic parts list and saw no transmission filter.
I neglected my 1989 Acura Integra transmission and decided to do several quick changes a few days apart to try to get the old fluid out. The only supplies needed are a new 14 mm crush washer (same as the oil drain bolt), pan to catch the fluid, and a funnel to refill at the dipstick hole.
Back then, the recommendation was for 30K mile ATF changes. Note that a simple drain only gets out about 40% of the fluid, so I think more frequent changes are a good idea.
I believe most Honda automatic transmissions are recirculating with no filter. They are among the easiest transmissions to change fluid; it's easier than an oil change. I've heard some of the new Hondas have a transmission filter and you'll have to drop the pan; I looked up the 2005 Civic parts list and saw no transmission filter.
I neglected my 1989 Acura Integra transmission and decided to do several quick changes a few days apart to try to get the old fluid out. The only supplies needed are a new 14 mm crush washer (same as the oil drain bolt), pan to catch the fluid, and a funnel to refill at the dipstick hole.
Back then, the recommendation was for 30K mile ATF changes. Note that a simple drain only gets out about 40% of the fluid, so I think more frequent changes are a good idea.
Well at least you got something for the trouble, wait dint you hear change it every 7.5k. Maybe drain a qt of motor oil every 1k miles instead of draining it all every 5k or so miles
Quote:
I failed woefully! ( No you did not)
But, even though threads commonly have topic changes, it is good to note that Honda considers 4 drain/refills as equivalent to a flush, regardless whether the old fluid is correct old tired OEM ATF or wrongly installed DexronIII.
Since I can't get people to consider a 20k or 30k intervals as barely acceptable, when I recommend 10k intervals, I also get the same response from members(regardless of forum). Yep, my recommendations are crazy. ( NOPE , they're right on and anybody paying attention in the real world "gets it" . Also , anybody who remembers when Honda ATs could knock down 250-450k with an easy program .)
Mentioning that a 7.5k drain/refill would be equivalent to a 30k flush is a simple point worth making and should be noted by all.I was simply being less obsessive with my original 10k recommendation and the 2 drain/refills for the thread starter to 'catch up' with my what I consider a very simple interval.
You sure ? I figured you were just working with what the OP gave you to work with .
Its not too hard to pull a drainplug every year or 6-months depending on how much driving you do.Even at dealer bloated ATF prices, 3 quarts($20) isn't going to put you in the poor house. And since minimal shopping effort on this particular fluid means 3.96-4.55/Q don't tell me money has anything to do with it . If you can afford the car, why not maintain it?
Besides ATF, 2 other fluids commonly neglectd are the brake and steering.
Here's an example: I can remove, rebuild for $250, and reinstall my Toyotas transmission in an afternoon. Now, with my skill set and experience, feel free to wonder why my last 4 ATF drain/refills were at ~5000 miles(6 months) typically at the same time of my oil changes. That IS one of THE ways to go
Usually transmissions cost $2000-$5000 to replace.
If you can double or triple its life with very cheap and simple maintenance, why wouldn't you?(Actually , only two , maybe three possible answers - FOR THOSE THAT SHOULD . IGNORANCE , STUPIDITY (,BAD ATITUDE/HEART/LAZY/FEARFUL)) I think paying $2k for a transmission every ~100k miles is crazy.It'll last 300k miles or more with a couple hundred bucks worth of maintenance.
And, in my original reply, I did mention a used oil analysis on the fluid. I can flush my transmissions for the cost of a used oil analysis. If budget only allows one, I'd recommend new fluid over the used oil analysis any day.
unDummy ,
I mean it , really , this is a stellar post that covers a great deal of ground and covers it well .
Alas , in some cases , even here , I believe , as in so many times in the past , it maybe a case of pearls before swine - no insult intended to anyone who still doesn't "get" what uD is pointing out .
I don't want to turn this into a mutual admiration society but I DO want you to know that at the very least , when it comes to ATs/ATF , Power Steering Fluid , Brake Fluid ,and how to use and maintain them wisely ... well .... ,my experience and knowledge such as it is tells me that you got your stuff together and in one bag - and I for one am glad that you do .
I also appreciate the fact you will respond to the most mundane post or question (repeatedly) and in a way that benefits the forum at large .
Just remember , sometimes it can be somewhat lonely at the top .
That said , I'm not in complete agreement with you all the time but its pretty d*** close .
Now , what I probably should have done first .
Critic , I owe you an apology for being unneccessarily rough and perhaps even rude ....
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