Holy domestic bashing!

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Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
I personally lay most of the blame at the feet of the UAW. IMO GM and Ford should have broken the UAW union long ago. The tactics employed by the UAW in the Flint strikes and in the more recent targeted strikes amount to nothing less than extortion.

And whats worse is the UAW doesn't even really do their job anymore. When you have new hires doing the same job as lifers but earning half or less in wage and benefits. How can the UAW claim to represent the employees that pay it's dues? Consider that person who got hired at half the wage, are they being represented? Are they the ones who benefit from the union? Heck no. They are screwed and can't afford the cars they are putting together! Henry Ford would be outraged at this situation!

The UAW needs to go away! The wages paid to the employees need to be fair and equitable for all involved, the company, the employee and the people who buy the end product.

What blame lays at the feet of management is smaller even than the blame our own goverment has burdened them with. Regulation and forced evolution are staggering for almost any manufacturing concern in this country. It's as if our government wanted and legislated our industry away, step by step their medling and regulation have shuttered all kinds of businesses.

Now management, they have plenty to be blamed for. The bloated, political systems they allowed to become entrenched because it was easier than ruffling all those internal feathers and dumping people. The fact that they constantly allow the "non car" people to decide the vision and direction of the company. Trust me, there are hundreds of great engineers and development people at GM and Ford. The products they design are fantastic stuff for the most part. I't's the other 90% of the bloated self important management that screws things up.
But in the end the biggest mistake management has to account for. The one that sank the ship. Is in it's own ironic way exactly why the UAW is numero uno in the blame game. Managements weak and [censored] way of dealing with the fraud, extortion and outright gangster tactics of the UAW are unforgivable. In essence IMO, the management allowed the UAW to gut the company from within. In the 80's they had an excellent opportunity to get rid of them, and they passed. Gutless!


+1

Very well said.
 
Foreign, domestic does not matter. If you're buying a new car you are taking a big hit just to have your eyes burn from the plastic outgassing. If the car is half way decent, a 3 yr old model should display very little wear.
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

That was no "bail out". It was a sham BK proceeding that left honest creditors in the lurch while the UAW(retirees) and the government stole the company. This is not what 90% of the people at GM wanted. Management should have walked away from that government trough, they didn't and here we are. Add that to the list of management screw ups...lol


Well there is the moral hazard of actually funding pension obligations. As GM shrank and stock tumbled this procedure was really sort of a "margin call". For workers to not get paid what was previously legally contracted would return us to the era of "Oliver Twist."

Ideally their pensions should have been fully funded from the sale of 1975 vehicles... in the heydey... in diversified stocks mostly outside the industry.

Yes many investors got gypped, but they were gambling. Pensions are/were supposed to be ironclad.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

That was no "bail out". It was a sham BK proceeding that left honest creditors in the lurch while the UAW(retirees) and the government stole the company. This is not what 90% of the people at GM wanted. Management should have walked away from that government trough, they didn't and here we are. Add that to the list of management screw ups...lol


Well there is the moral hazard of actually funding pension obligations. As GM shrank and stock tumbled this procedure was really sort of a "margin call". For workers to not get paid what was previously legally contracted would return us to the era of "Oliver Twist."

Ideally their pensions should have been fully funded from the sale of 1975 vehicles... in the heydey... in diversified stocks mostly outside the industry.

Yes many investors got gypped, but they were gambling. Pensions are/were supposed to be ironclad.


Creditors were not gambling by any stretch of the imagination. They provided goods and services often under legal binding contracts. The only difference between the creditors contracts and the UAW retirees contract is that the suppliers and creditors didn't earn their contract by extortion.

Your talking about pensioners being owed something, while the new hires at GM and Ford make LESS than the retirees! Let that sink in for a bit.....That kind of upside down economics doesn't work outside the government and federally run ponzi schemes like Social Security.
As far as I'm concerned those pensioners you speak of took the best GM had to offer, at times by force and cohersion, they owe GM. Actually, screw GM, they owe the creditors and litigants that were screwed by their "theft" of the company.
 
It's all the same side of the coin.
cheers3.gif
Management in 1975 should have said "no way" to the wage/pension demands.
 
Let me throw something out there.
Every major nameplate offers some very durable and reliable models.
While we tend to be "import" buyers, we bought a dated Ford model when we felt we needed a van, and it has been as durable and reliable as any car we have ever owned.
I think that a Honda Accord is the best all-around moderately priced car available.
I also think that anyone buying a Malibu or a Fusion will get good value for their money, and will be happy with their purchase.
It should never be about import vs domestic.
We have a huge number of choices in the current market.
Anyone who refuses to consider a car based upon the name on the grill is only cheating himself.
 
fdcg27 -- since you're a new member,the site will have to let it slide that your post contains logic, and common sense. you'll find out quickly that those qualities elude many posters. you want proof ? you and the O.P. (cchase, another rookie} go back to nov.'08 - march '09 posts, re:big three bashing. there was import bashing, as well, but to a much lesser degree. a lot of entertainment there. and, you'll learn a lot about the credibility of many posters.the last 3 sentences of your post said it all. have a good day.
 
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American cars are every bit the car that Foreign cars are. That wasn't always the case, but now for the most part it is. Interestingly, ever since late last year a "buy american" sentiment has been more common than before. (Read this on CNN and MSNBC)
 
Personally, I find it interesting that people are trying to justify domestic bashing in this thread...
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
The UAW and the government stole the company from the rightful owners through an unprecendented and illegal sham BK proceeding. Calling it a "bail out" ignores the true facts of what went down.


The "rightful" owner deserves what it got to begin with: a shell that has nothing left because of poor management years ago. Bankruptcy is certain either way, might as well make something out of a new, negotiated deal.
 
Domestic bashing is a regional thing. In Calif it's amazing how many imports you see. You can walk in some parking lots and count only 1 domestic vehicle out of 5. I have owned domestic cars and have nothing against them in general, and when people ask for my recommendation on cars I will throw out a list which will include some domestics, but the other person will usually eliminate the American brand vehicle immediately just because it's American. There is a very strong stigma against them here in terms of reliability and "cheapness" and image. Domestics still have good market share in the truck/SUV segment in Calif, but the battle over the car segment is lost.
 
Originally Posted By: tonycarguy
Domestic bashing is a regional thing. In Calif it's amazing how many imports you see. You can walk in some parking lots and count only 1 domestic vehicle out of 5. I have owned domestic cars and have nothing against them in general, and when people ask for my recommendation on cars I will throw out a list which will include some domestics, but the other person will usually eliminate the American brand vehicle immediately just because it's American. There is a very strong stigma against them here in terms of reliability and "cheapness" and image. Domestics still have good market share in the truck/SUV segment in Calif, but the battle over the car segment is lost.



The image of reliability is starting to recover for the Domestic, the "cheapness" is going to be around until they use better interior materials, and yes, even the new Malibu isn't quite up there in quality compare to a 90s Corolla (although it is a good step forward from the past).
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: tonycarguy
Domestic bashing is a regional thing. In Calif it's amazing how many imports you see. You can walk in some parking lots and count only 1 domestic vehicle out of 5. I have owned domestic cars and have nothing against them in general, and when people ask for my recommendation on cars I will throw out a list which will include some domestics, but the other person will usually eliminate the American brand vehicle immediately just because it's American. There is a very strong stigma against them here in terms of reliability and "cheapness" and image. Domestics still have good market share in the truck/SUV segment in Calif, but the battle over the car segment is lost.



The image of reliability is starting to recover for the Domestic, the "cheapness" is going to be around until they use better interior materials, and yes, even the new Malibu isn't quite up there in quality compare to a 90s Corolla (although it is a good step forward from the past).


Personally the Malibu I sat in had an interior I would consider to be on par with our 2003 Accord. Just my opinion.
 
Originally Posted By: cchase
Personally the Malibu I sat in had an interior I would consider to be on par with our 2003 Accord. Just my opinion.



THANK YOU!!
The one you directed this towards proved tonycarguy's point, being from your Cali-land, but VERY sadly this is also starting to be the attitude/mindset of "flyover country" (or as one poster put it, "Toby Keith" type) folks as well.
frown.gif


All of you may hate on cousincletus, but I do agree with him on the "heaven help U.S." once ALL domestic manufacturing is gone.
Do not be soooo confident/assured/secure that your non-manufacturing domestic jobs are completely safe/impervious from the downturns at least partly caused by trade imbalances (more like ONE-SIDED trade when it comes to eastern Asia).
 
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