Holy domestic bashing!
- Thread starter cchase
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Don't forget that it took around 200k miles for it happen on mine.
It really sounds to me that you had a problem with how the dealership handled the repair of your DPFE sensor, especially their having charged you a diagnosis fee for a known problem sensor.
I agree that the DPFE diagnosis was an issue mainly pertaining to the dealer's service department. But I had to spend so much time, money and effort (ie, searching Ranger forums) to finally rectify it, that it left a bad taste. Now don't get me wrong, I haven't given up on Ford; my truck is now "problem free" & I'll keep it until something major happens. But I will most likely look to another manufacturer when the time comes to replace it.
As for the G6, that's a "magnified" situation: Low mileage, known design problem & what seems to be a "built-in" revenue stream for Mr. Goodwrench. In a couple of years, when it's time to replace the Ranger, I'd really like to be able to buy a Suburban; it's gonna take a lot of effort to get past my G6 experience though.
Don't forget that it took around 200k miles for it happen on mine.
It really sounds to me that you had a problem with how the dealership handled the repair of your DPFE sensor, especially their having charged you a diagnosis fee for a known problem sensor.
I agree that the DPFE diagnosis was an issue mainly pertaining to the dealer's service department. But I had to spend so much time, money and effort (ie, searching Ranger forums) to finally rectify it, that it left a bad taste. Now don't get me wrong, I haven't given up on Ford; my truck is now "problem free" & I'll keep it until something major happens. But I will most likely look to another manufacturer when the time comes to replace it.
As for the G6, that's a "magnified" situation: Low mileage, known design problem & what seems to be a "built-in" revenue stream for Mr. Goodwrench. In a couple of years, when it's time to replace the Ranger, I'd really like to be able to buy a Suburban; it's gonna take a lot of effort to get past my G6 experience though.
If you think this is bashing, then you seriously need to check what kind of "fair" treatment a company should get for past mistakes.
There will always be a few people who think they are the best because they can afford something that's a certain brand or made in a certain countries. Regardless of domestic or import brands, there are going to be problems somewhere.
But given the previous problems that GM, Ford, Chryslers are having (i.e. the V6 IM gasket, the transmissions, etc), they can't blame the lemon owners. We are starting to see the same for Honda transmission and Toyota V6 sludge issues and how that affect their reputation, and how VW, BMW, and MBZ got jabbed for their "german engineering" FAIL. I'd say it is a fair game.
Reputation is earned, the old fashion way.
There will always be a few people who think they are the best because they can afford something that's a certain brand or made in a certain countries. Regardless of domestic or import brands, there are going to be problems somewhere.
But given the previous problems that GM, Ford, Chryslers are having (i.e. the V6 IM gasket, the transmissions, etc), they can't blame the lemon owners. We are starting to see the same for Honda transmission and Toyota V6 sludge issues and how that affect their reputation, and how VW, BMW, and MBZ got jabbed for their "german engineering" FAIL. I'd say it is a fair game.
Reputation is earned, the old fashion way.
I just think there is a line between objective and subjective claims.
As others have mentioned in the thread, a vehicle is a large investment for many and just because someone had a bad experience doesn't mean they have to try to ruin someone elses potentially good experience with a brand with slander.
Time after time I see the same arguments, "buy American", "American cars are junk", "American cars get horrible gas mileage", "Government Motors", "imports are tin cans" etc etc etc. Most of which are false or at least misleading and all of which serve only to inflame those entrenched on the other side with no possible positive outcome.
Just like what I am seeing in this thread, people pigeonholing brands through individual events that transpired in their own life. "Ford sucks because they had a module that failed and didn't issue a recall".
As others have mentioned in the thread, a vehicle is a large investment for many and just because someone had a bad experience doesn't mean they have to try to ruin someone elses potentially good experience with a brand with slander.
Time after time I see the same arguments, "buy American", "American cars are junk", "American cars get horrible gas mileage", "Government Motors", "imports are tin cans" etc etc etc. Most of which are false or at least misleading and all of which serve only to inflame those entrenched on the other side with no possible positive outcome.
Just like what I am seeing in this thread, people pigeonholing brands through individual events that transpired in their own life. "Ford sucks because they had a module that failed and didn't issue a recall".
Ford issued TSB 97-22-1 pertaining to DPFE diagnosis. This TSB was issued in 1997.
What can Ford do about a dealership staffed with people who can't be bothered to read the TSBs pertaining to the products they fix?
What can Ford do about a dealership staffed with people who can't be bothered to read the TSBs pertaining to the products they fix?
Originally Posted By: cchase
That is all. I just wanted to throw that out there. What's going on with the board recently?
I'm only saying it so that maybe people will take some time to temper their responses. Doesn't make a new member feel very welcome when so many threads have so much negativity in them! Everyone has different tastes, they shouldn't be made to feel unwelcome.
So are you pushing for censorship regarding the Big Three Automakers, when opinions are not favorable? That's absolutely ridiculous. Are you trying to restrict what we say on the board because it hurts your feelings? You're acting like a five year old.
That is all. I just wanted to throw that out there. What's going on with the board recently?
I'm only saying it so that maybe people will take some time to temper their responses. Doesn't make a new member feel very welcome when so many threads have so much negativity in them! Everyone has different tastes, they shouldn't be made to feel unwelcome.
So are you pushing for censorship regarding the Big Three Automakers, when opinions are not favorable? That's absolutely ridiculous. Are you trying to restrict what we say on the board because it hurts your feelings? You're acting like a five year old.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: cchase
That is all. I just wanted to throw that out there. What's going on with the board recently?
I'm only saying it so that maybe people will take some time to temper their responses. Doesn't make a new member feel very welcome when so many threads have so much negativity in them! Everyone has different tastes, they shouldn't be made to feel unwelcome.
So are you pushing for censorship regarding the Big Three Automakers, when opinions are not favorable? That's absolutely ridiculous. Are you trying to restrict what we say on the board because it hurts your feelings? You're acting like a five year old.
What on earth are you talking about? Did you even read through this thread before posting?
Originally Posted By: cchase
That is all. I just wanted to throw that out there. What's going on with the board recently?
I'm only saying it so that maybe people will take some time to temper their responses. Doesn't make a new member feel very welcome when so many threads have so much negativity in them! Everyone has different tastes, they shouldn't be made to feel unwelcome.
So are you pushing for censorship regarding the Big Three Automakers, when opinions are not favorable? That's absolutely ridiculous. Are you trying to restrict what we say on the board because it hurts your feelings? You're acting like a five year old.
What on earth are you talking about? Did you even read through this thread before posting?
Originally Posted By: cchase
What on earth are you talking about? Did you even read through this thread before posting?
I have. I'm responding to your original post and sentiment. You and a few others have been complaining about the lack of fawning over the Big Three and I wanted to address this issue head-on. Are we all right on that note? I hope so.
What on earth are you talking about? Did you even read through this thread before posting?
I have. I'm responding to your original post and sentiment. You and a few others have been complaining about the lack of fawning over the Big Three and I wanted to address this issue head-on. Are we all right on that note? I hope so.
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: cchase
What on earth are you talking about? Did you even read through this thread before posting?
I have. I'm responding to your original post and sentiment. You and a few others have been complaining about the lack of fawning over the Big Three and I wanted to address this issue head-on. Are we all right on that note? I hope so.
I could really care less whether everyone on here loved or hated the Big 3, as long as they don't make insulting, baseless blanket statements which serve to add nothing to the discussion and only provoke others (trolling as its defined by many boards).
There's a difference between expressing opinion as opinion and opinion as fact which was the point of this thread (and that I mentioned earlier).
I drive a truck that is far too old and has too many miles for me to have any attachment with the brand name attached to it and a car that is built in Australia by a company owned by GM but which operates mostly independently from the company in the US. In fact the only American thing about my car is the engine and the transmission.
You won't find any strong feelings towards or away from any brand from me.
Originally Posted By: cchase
What on earth are you talking about? Did you even read through this thread before posting?
I have. I'm responding to your original post and sentiment. You and a few others have been complaining about the lack of fawning over the Big Three and I wanted to address this issue head-on. Are we all right on that note? I hope so.
I could really care less whether everyone on here loved or hated the Big 3, as long as they don't make insulting, baseless blanket statements which serve to add nothing to the discussion and only provoke others (trolling as its defined by many boards).
There's a difference between expressing opinion as opinion and opinion as fact which was the point of this thread (and that I mentioned earlier).
I drive a truck that is far too old and has too many miles for me to have any attachment with the brand name attached to it and a car that is built in Australia by a company owned by GM but which operates mostly independently from the company in the US. In fact the only American thing about my car is the engine and the transmission.
You won't find any strong feelings towards or away from any brand from me.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, there has been a whole lot of import bashing as well, much of it done by some of the same people who can't stomach Big Three criticism. I'm not talking about you - I'm talking about some others that I've seen on here. Just an observation
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Well, if it makes you feel any better, there has been a whole lot of import bashing as well, much of it done by some of the same people who can't stomach Big Three criticism. I'm not talking about you - I'm talking about some others that I've seen on here. Just an observation
I know what you're talking about, and that isn't right either. In my own previous posts in this thread I acknowledged this.
Perhaps the title of the thread would have been better named "Holy brand bashing!" but I made it after reading a particular thread that I thought had taken a particularly sour tone.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, there has been a whole lot of import bashing as well, much of it done by some of the same people who can't stomach Big Three criticism. I'm not talking about you - I'm talking about some others that I've seen on here. Just an observation
I know what you're talking about, and that isn't right either. In my own previous posts in this thread I acknowledged this.
Perhaps the title of the thread would have been better named "Holy brand bashing!" but I made it after reading a particular thread that I thought had taken a particularly sour tone.
And as I mentioned, I'm not personally offended but it's off-putting to read in so many threads this "sour tone".
Last edited:
Some BITOG members (pro USA) think its wrong to buy a high quality car/truck that isn't made here in the USA by one of the big three.
I see some GM dealerships abandoned with weeds growing in the empty lot due to the very greedy and ignorant UAW boys that pushed the company they worked for to the very brink of bankruptcy and now complain its some immigrant in a distant country for the reason why they are out of work and being a beer drinking couch potato
I see some GM dealerships abandoned with weeds growing in the empty lot due to the very greedy and ignorant UAW boys that pushed the company they worked for to the very brink of bankruptcy and now complain its some immigrant in a distant country for the reason why they are out of work and being a beer drinking couch potato
Presumably, if they are in a foreign country they aren't an immigrant, at least not in the context of the USA, which is how you were using the term.
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Some BITOG members (pro USA) think its wrong to buy a high quality car/truck that isn't made here in the USA by one of the big three.
I see some GM dealerships abandoned with weeds growing in the empty lot due to the very greedy and ignorant UAW boys that pushed the company they worked for to the very brink of bankruptcy and now complain its some immigrant in a distant country for the reason why they are out of work and being a beer drinking couch potato
Careful there. I wouldn't lay all the blame on UAW or big 3 management alone for that.
We in the US as a free market allow all sorts of import and free market R&D. Heavy industries in other part of the world are part of their national security or financial stability issues that they have government backing or policies support that make sure they do not fail. It is a large corp vs. government institute in some cases, and if they are planning to dump / flood the market with heavy R&D regardless of investment and return, they will win in the long run and you can't help that.
Example: The Japanese DRAM industry in the 80s/90s and now the Korean DRAM/Flash memory industry, the Japanese robotics industry, the US aerospace and defense industry, the European and US oil industry, the Russian energy industry, the Middle East oil industry, the Chinese manufacturing industry, the US agricultural industry, etc, etc.
A free market can win in the long run if your opponents are also rational and run as a free market. If they are not rational, or have a super size institute backing and can outlast you, well, you can't win.
Some BITOG members (pro USA) think its wrong to buy a high quality car/truck that isn't made here in the USA by one of the big three.
I see some GM dealerships abandoned with weeds growing in the empty lot due to the very greedy and ignorant UAW boys that pushed the company they worked for to the very brink of bankruptcy and now complain its some immigrant in a distant country for the reason why they are out of work and being a beer drinking couch potato
Careful there. I wouldn't lay all the blame on UAW or big 3 management alone for that.
We in the US as a free market allow all sorts of import and free market R&D. Heavy industries in other part of the world are part of their national security or financial stability issues that they have government backing or policies support that make sure they do not fail. It is a large corp vs. government institute in some cases, and if they are planning to dump / flood the market with heavy R&D regardless of investment and return, they will win in the long run and you can't help that.
Example: The Japanese DRAM industry in the 80s/90s and now the Korean DRAM/Flash memory industry, the Japanese robotics industry, the US aerospace and defense industry, the European and US oil industry, the Russian energy industry, the Middle East oil industry, the Chinese manufacturing industry, the US agricultural industry, etc, etc.
A free market can win in the long run if your opponents are also rational and run as a free market. If they are not rational, or have a super size institute backing and can outlast you, well, you can't win.
I personally lay most of the blame at the feet of the UAW. IMO GM and Ford should have broken the UAW union long ago. The tactics employed by the UAW in the Flint strikes and in the more recent targeted strikes amount to nothing less than extortion.
And whats worse is the UAW doesn't even really do their job anymore. When you have new hires doing the same job as lifers but earning half or less in wage and benefits. How can the UAW claim to represent the employees that pay it's dues? Consider that person who got hired at half the wage, are they being represented? Are they the ones who benefit from the union? Heck no. They are screwed and can't afford the cars they are putting together! Henry Ford would be outraged at this situation!
The UAW needs to go away! The wages paid to the employees need to be fair and equitable for all involved, the company, the employee and the people who buy the end product.
What blame lays at the feet of management is smaller even than the blame our own goverment has burdened them with. Regulation and forced evolution are staggering for almost any manufacturing concern in this country. It's as if our government wanted and legislated our industry away, step by step their medling and regulation have shuttered all kinds of businesses.
Now management, they have plenty to be blamed for. The bloated, political systems they allowed to become entrenched because it was easier than ruffling all those internal feathers and dumping people. The fact that they constantly allow the "non car" people to decide the vision and direction of the company. Trust me, there are hundreds of great engineers and development people at GM and Ford. The products they design are fantastic stuff for the most part. I't's the other 90% of the bloated self important management that screws things up.
But in the end the biggest mistake management has to account for. The one that sank the ship. Is in it's own ironic way exactly why the UAW is numero uno in the blame game. Managements weak and [censored] way of dealing with the fraud, extortion and outright gangster tactics of the UAW are unforgivable. In essence IMO, the management allowed the UAW to gut the company from within. In the 80's they had an excellent opportunity to get rid of them, and they passed. Gutless!
And whats worse is the UAW doesn't even really do their job anymore. When you have new hires doing the same job as lifers but earning half or less in wage and benefits. How can the UAW claim to represent the employees that pay it's dues? Consider that person who got hired at half the wage, are they being represented? Are they the ones who benefit from the union? Heck no. They are screwed and can't afford the cars they are putting together! Henry Ford would be outraged at this situation!
The UAW needs to go away! The wages paid to the employees need to be fair and equitable for all involved, the company, the employee and the people who buy the end product.
What blame lays at the feet of management is smaller even than the blame our own goverment has burdened them with. Regulation and forced evolution are staggering for almost any manufacturing concern in this country. It's as if our government wanted and legislated our industry away, step by step their medling and regulation have shuttered all kinds of businesses.
Now management, they have plenty to be blamed for. The bloated, political systems they allowed to become entrenched because it was easier than ruffling all those internal feathers and dumping people. The fact that they constantly allow the "non car" people to decide the vision and direction of the company. Trust me, there are hundreds of great engineers and development people at GM and Ford. The products they design are fantastic stuff for the most part. I't's the other 90% of the bloated self important management that screws things up.
But in the end the biggest mistake management has to account for. The one that sank the ship. Is in it's own ironic way exactly why the UAW is numero uno in the blame game. Managements weak and [censored] way of dealing with the fraud, extortion and outright gangster tactics of the UAW are unforgivable. In essence IMO, the management allowed the UAW to gut the company from within. In the 80's they had an excellent opportunity to get rid of them, and they passed. Gutless!
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Some BITOG members (pro USA) think its wrong to buy a high quality car/truck that isn't made here in the USA by one of the big three.
I dont see that around here at all. Maybe I just have blinders on, but what I see is a guy buys a new Camaro and people ask why he didn't buy X Y or Z import. Or I see the guy who trades a Z car for a Vette and some doof import kool aid drinker tells the guy "he's gonna miss the Z". I see arrogant [censored] like that aimed at domestic owners here all the time.
I may rib an import new car buyer at times, but never in a comparative sense and definitely not when they've just bought a new car. Congratulate the guy, or move on.....why insinuate his decision was faulty after the fact?
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
I see some GM dealerships abandoned with weeds growing in the empty lot due to the very greedy and ignorant UAW boys that pushed the company they worked for to the very brink of bankruptcy and now complain its some immigrant in a distant country for the reason why they are out of work and being a beer drinking couch potato
I don't even know what that means...... In most respects it probably speaks more to your own defeciencies than to the topic at hand.
Some BITOG members (pro USA) think its wrong to buy a high quality car/truck that isn't made here in the USA by one of the big three.
I dont see that around here at all. Maybe I just have blinders on, but what I see is a guy buys a new Camaro and people ask why he didn't buy X Y or Z import. Or I see the guy who trades a Z car for a Vette and some doof import kool aid drinker tells the guy "he's gonna miss the Z". I see arrogant [censored] like that aimed at domestic owners here all the time.
I may rib an import new car buyer at times, but never in a comparative sense and definitely not when they've just bought a new car. Congratulate the guy, or move on.....why insinuate his decision was faulty after the fact?
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
I see some GM dealerships abandoned with weeds growing in the empty lot due to the very greedy and ignorant UAW boys that pushed the company they worked for to the very brink of bankruptcy and now complain its some immigrant in a distant country for the reason why they are out of work and being a beer drinking couch potato
I don't even know what that means...... In most respects it probably speaks more to your own defeciencies than to the topic at hand.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
I personally lay most of the blame at the feet of the UAW. IMO GM and Ford should have broken the UAW union long ago. The tactics employed by the UAW in the Flint strikes and in the more recent targeted strikes amount to nothing less than extortion.
And whats worse is the UAW doesn't even really do their job anymore. When you have new hires doing the same job as lifers but earning half or less in wage and benefits. How can the UAW claim to represent the employees that pay it's dues? Consider that person who got hired at half the wage, are they being represented? Are they the ones who benefit from the union? Heck no. They are screwed and can't afford the cars they are putting together! Henry Ford would be outraged at this situation!
The UAW needs to go away! The wages paid to the employees need to be fair and equitable for all involved, the company, the employee and the people who buy the end product.
What blame lays at the feet of management is smaller even than the blame our own goverment has burdened them with. Regulation and forced evolution are staggering for almost any manufacturing concern in this country. It's as if our government wanted and legislated our industry away, step by step their medling and regulation have shuttered all kinds of businesses.
Now management, they have plenty to be blamed for. The bloated, political systems they allowed to become entrenched because it was easier than ruffling all those internal feathers and dumping people. The fact that they constantly allow the "non car" people to decide the vision and direction of the company. Trust me, there are hundreds of great engineers and development people at GM and Ford. The products they design are fantastic stuff for the most part. I't's the other 90% of the bloated self important management that screws things up.
But in the end the biggest mistake management has to account for. The one that sank the ship. Is in it's own ironic way exactly why the UAW is numero uno in the blame game. Managements weak and [censored] way of dealing with the fraud, extortion and outright gangster tactics of the UAW are unforgivable. In essence IMO, the management allowed the UAW to gut the company from within. In the 80's they had an excellent opportunity to get rid of them, and they passed. Gutless!
Wow, I agree with you 100% +1
I personally lay most of the blame at the feet of the UAW. IMO GM and Ford should have broken the UAW union long ago. The tactics employed by the UAW in the Flint strikes and in the more recent targeted strikes amount to nothing less than extortion.
And whats worse is the UAW doesn't even really do their job anymore. When you have new hires doing the same job as lifers but earning half or less in wage and benefits. How can the UAW claim to represent the employees that pay it's dues? Consider that person who got hired at half the wage, are they being represented? Are they the ones who benefit from the union? Heck no. They are screwed and can't afford the cars they are putting together! Henry Ford would be outraged at this situation!
The UAW needs to go away! The wages paid to the employees need to be fair and equitable for all involved, the company, the employee and the people who buy the end product.
What blame lays at the feet of management is smaller even than the blame our own goverment has burdened them with. Regulation and forced evolution are staggering for almost any manufacturing concern in this country. It's as if our government wanted and legislated our industry away, step by step their medling and regulation have shuttered all kinds of businesses.
Now management, they have plenty to be blamed for. The bloated, political systems they allowed to become entrenched because it was easier than ruffling all those internal feathers and dumping people. The fact that they constantly allow the "non car" people to decide the vision and direction of the company. Trust me, there are hundreds of great engineers and development people at GM and Ford. The products they design are fantastic stuff for the most part. I't's the other 90% of the bloated self important management that screws things up.
But in the end the biggest mistake management has to account for. The one that sank the ship. Is in it's own ironic way exactly why the UAW is numero uno in the blame game. Managements weak and [censored] way of dealing with the fraud, extortion and outright gangster tactics of the UAW are unforgivable. In essence IMO, the management allowed the UAW to gut the company from within. In the 80's they had an excellent opportunity to get rid of them, and they passed. Gutless!
Wow, I agree with you 100% +1
Last edited:
Thanks....lol
Oh and one more thing.....Every time someone says GM "bail out". That drives me nuts!
Don't say "bail out" thats just some headline pablum from the press for the idiots among us.
Call it what it was, the GM "theft". The UAW and the government stole the company from the rightful owners through an unprecendented and illegal sham BK proceeding. Calling it a "bail out" ignores the true facts of what went down.
That was no "bail out". It was a sham BK proceeding that left honest creditors in the lurch while the UAW(retirees) and the government stole the company. This is not what 90% of the people at GM wanted. Management should have walked away from that government trough, they didn't and here we are. Add that to the list of management screw ups...lol
Oh and one more thing.....Every time someone says GM "bail out". That drives me nuts!
Don't say "bail out" thats just some headline pablum from the press for the idiots among us.
Call it what it was, the GM "theft". The UAW and the government stole the company from the rightful owners through an unprecendented and illegal sham BK proceeding. Calling it a "bail out" ignores the true facts of what went down.
That was no "bail out". It was a sham BK proceeding that left honest creditors in the lurch while the UAW(retirees) and the government stole the company. This is not what 90% of the people at GM wanted. Management should have walked away from that government trough, they didn't and here we are. Add that to the list of management screw ups...lol
- Status
