High V.I. oils, on purpose, or consequence??

[Joe90_guy]

Okay, let's restrict ourselves to solids and bypass the 'designed-to-confuse' slate of liquid dilutions that's offered up.

Sv50? Oh dear. Where do I start? God awful to dissolve. Stupidly low SSI (why???). Good on basic polymeric efficiency. Hopeless on HTHS.

Sv250? A lower SSI, sheared down version of Sv260. Makes no sense at all as a VII.

Sv300? High SSI version for The Rebel Colonies. Died peacefully in its sleep about a decade ago.

What did I miss?

Don't fret yourself about going off topic. This thread has meandered all over the place already and is all the better for it.

 

[Joe90_guy]

Lubricatosaurus,

I watched the Shell YouTube video. I think the only thing you can definitively conclude here is that the Shell Tech Centre must have an excellent staff canteen.

I sometimes wish I'd been one of these people; living in my own happy little bubble, running little test rigs (however meaningless), far, far away from the nasty, vicious, cut-throat insanity that characterises the real world of engine oil formulation.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Okay, let's restrict ourselves to solids and bypass the 'designed-to-confuse' slate of liquid dilutions that's offered up.

Sv50? Oh dear. Where do I start? God awful to dissolve. Stupidly low SSI (why???). Good on basic polymeric efficiency. Hopeless on HTHS.

Sv250? A lower SSI, sheared down version of Sv260. Makes no sense at all as a VII.

Sv300? High SSI version for The Rebel Colonies. Died peacefully in its sleep about a decade ago.

What did I miss?

Don't fret yourself about going off topic. This thread has meandered all over the place already and is all the better for it.

To name two which are more recent and in the public domain

SV200 - very shear stable and a big HTHS boost vs Kv100
SV600 - Fuel economy - but does give a high VI in final oils (>200)

SV150 DVM too

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
So you didn't put a heap of effort into targetting 142 for my magnatec 10W30 ???

I'm a little disappointed that you weren't specifically after a range of 141.6 to 142.4...


Sorry no - inhouse VM technology in that one too.

 

[Joe90_guy]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Okay, let's restrict ourselves to solids and bypass the 'designed-to-confuse' slate of liquid dilutions that's offered up.

Sv50? Oh dear. Where do I start? God awful to dissolve. Stupidly low SSI (why???). Good on basic polymeric efficiency. Hopeless on HTHS.

Sv250? A lower SSI, sheared down version of Sv260. Makes no sense at all as a VII.

Sv300? High SSI version for The Rebel Colonies. Died peacefully in its sleep about a decade ago.

What did I miss?

Don't fret yourself about going off topic. This thread has meandered all over the place already and is all the better for it.

To name two which are more recent and in the public domain

SV200 - very shear stable and a big HTHS boost vs Kv100
SV600 - Fuel economy - but does give a high VI in final oils (>200)

SV150 DVM too



I took me a while to remember what Sv200 was. It was really, really old when I first started working in crankcase so it must be positively ancient now.

Thankfully I found this patent which contained all the numbers I needed to refresh my fast fading memory (BTW is this your mob?)

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2504416A1?cl=en

Sv200 is the ultimate sheared down version of Shellvis rubber with an SSI of close to zero. HTHS performance is better than Sv 260 and Sv 250 but only because there's so little for the HTHS machine to shear down (even then, it's HTHS performance isn't fantastic). But you pay a hefty price for this because the polymeric efficiency of the smaller VI chains drops like a brick. I'll wager that if you put up a 22 SSI OCP against a zero SSI Sv 200 in a HTHS limited xW30, factor in the raw polymer loadings and costs, the OCP would do surprisingly well.


Sv600 doesn't ring any bells. I know there's data on it in this patent but whilst I can read the words, I can't yet read the tabulated data. I'll keep trying.

https://www.google.com/patents/WO2015097152A1

It does occur to me that Sv600 might just be Sv300 reincarnated? It would fit the profile you describe. If your objective was purely to create an oil with a ridiculously high Viscosity Index and then attributing great fuel economy to the oil, then using an extremely high SSI Sv polymer would I concede make sense. But would you not be a tad concerned about the ethics of doing something like this? You're basically pimping a oil that falls to bits???

 

[Joe90_guy]

Okay, this a long shot and nothing to do with the thread but I'll ask the question anyway...

As anyone here ever wrapped themselves up naked in cling-film (Saran Wrap???) to surprise their wife when she came home?

Just asking...

 

[bobbydavro]

It's interesting you only talk of cost. I guess this is an additive companies view.

I'm more interested in high performance top tier engine oils so see what these high performing VMs can deliver. Eg less than 2% shear in a KO90.

 

[Joe90_guy]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
It's interesting you only talk of cost. I guess this is an additive companies view.

I'm more interested in high performance top tier engine oils so see what these high performing VMs can deliver. Eg less than 2% shear in a KO90.



What an answer!! I am splitting my sides laughing! Since when exactly were oil companies NOT interested in cost? The biggest lubricating oil companies have dedicated, complex, global procedures specifically charged with taking cost out of their systems. They have become experts at playing the additive companies off against each other and have not the slightest compunction about lumbering the AddCo's with the entire cost of development programs or sorting out global Tox'n'Pox registration.

Okay, I'll concede that if you're formulating absolute top-tier stuff, cost is a lesser issue than it might otherwise be but exactly what percentage of the global market does this represent? 1%? 2%? Let's be generous and say 5%. For those of us lesser mortals that have to live in the 95% world of 'normal' lubricants, maybe you could occasionally wave to us from your ivory tower as we drive past in our Kia's and Ford's.

What a joke. Still p'ing myself laughing. This really has made my day!

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
I'm more interested in high performance top tier engine oils so see what these high performing VMs can deliver. Eg less than 2% shear in a KO90.



In theory it might be nice to talk about "high performance" and "top tier" in the way you describe, but we have another way to describe them "over formulated".

The problem with over formulated oils is that they never make it past the development stage. If you were to walk the halls of the R&D facilities of any of the major additive suppliers they have molecules that would blow your mind. Here we debate the need for 0W16 whereas there they are investigating 0W4, new antiwear and fm chemistry that would blow your mind, and magic VM's that keep a fluid the same viscosity regardless of temperature, pressure or any other factors... (ok maybe I'm exaggerating a little on that last one). What is possible to deliver in performance is completely different to what someone is willing to pay for. No additive company will ever run a 3-5 million dollar development program with full engine testing on something that will never sell. Cost is always a factor.

 

[Joe90_guy]

Solarent,
I know you're highlighting a slightly different point, but I can put my hand on heart and assure you that I've seen a few $US 3-5 million programs, done specifically for customers, that have crashed and burnt with not an ounce of jollop sold. Often it's the biggest oil companies that are the worst offenders in this regard. I don't quite know where this form of extreme arrogance in the oil companies comes from but they just treat people like they're some lower form of pond life. Sad but true...

 

[Joe90_guy]

Just in case anyone is concerned about the tone of some of these exchanges, can I just say that whilst us Brits have banned fox hunting, we have not abolished all blood sports. Formulator Baiting is still legal and has similar rules to Pit Bull Fighting but is considerably more vicious...

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
In advanced Organic Chemistry courses we take 1/3 of the semester to discuss polymer science.

For those wanting to further investigate this fascinating aspect of Organic Chemistry, here is one Journal devoted to the topic:

Journal of Applied Polymer Science


This is a great conversation that I am very much enjoying. Thanks all.

That is a great Journal that I have proudly published in a few times. But having said that, I am only a interested amateur when it comes to lubrication chemistry, and each field has it's own minute detail and language. So if the experts could explain a little more long hand, and define a few more acronyms along the way, that would help me (and possibly a few others) follow the conversation a little better. Only a respectful request and only if it doesn't break the flow of an enjoyable thread.



What terms would you like to have further defined?

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
It's interesting you only talk of cost. I guess this is an additive companies view.

I'm more interested in high performance top tier engine oils so see what these high performing VMs can deliver. Eg less than 2% shear in a KO90.



What an answer!! I am splitting my sides laughing! Since when exactly were oil companies NOT interested in cost? The biggest lubricating oil companies have dedicated, complex, global procedures specifically charged with taking cost out of their systems. They have become experts at playing the additive companies off against each other and have not the slightest compunction about lumbering the AddCo's with the entire cost of development programs or sorting out global Tox'n'Pox registration.

Okay, I'll concede that if you're formulating absolute top-tier stuff, cost is a lesser issue than it might otherwise be but exactly what percentage of the global market does this represent? 1%? 2%? Let's be generous and say 5%. For those of us lesser mortals that have to live in the 95% world of 'normal' lubricants, maybe you could occasionally wave to us from your ivory tower as we drive past in our Kia's and Ford's.

What a joke. Still p'ing myself laughing. This really has made my day!


Strange response.

I am one of these oil company guys, who sometimes does component up formulating, with in-house components, or boosting market general offers where specification demands drive the formulation requirements. Not cost targets and certainly not relying on single adcos. VMs are an important lever in the ingredient box and there is no way you are meeting top tier specifications like BMW LL04, VW 505 01 or 504 / 507 on OCP stuff. (Nor high VI PMAs)

These specs are a huge part of the European market so don't pretend everyone is driving around in cars using 10W-40 A3/B4 with OCP VM. I can't think of any 5W on OCP

I guess this is the difference between commodity lubricants and technology leading stuff...

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
I'm more interested in high performance top tier engine oils so see what these high performing VMs can deliver. Eg less than 2% shear in a KO90.



In theory it might be nice to talk about "high performance" and "top tier" in the way you describe, but we have another way to describe them "over formulated".

The problem with over formulated oils is that they never make it past the development stage. If you were to walk the halls of the R&D facilities of any of the major additive suppliers they have molecules that would blow your mind. Here we debate the need for 0W16 whereas there they are investigating 0W4, new antiwear and fm chemistry that would blow your mind, and magic VM's that keep a fluid the same viscosity regardless of temperature, pressure or any other factors... (ok maybe I'm exaggerating a little on that last one). What is possible to deliver in performance is completely different to what someone is willing to pay for. No additive company will ever run a 3-5 million dollar development program with full engine testing on something that will never sell. Cost is always a factor.

And willy wonker is in charge too?

350VI oils aren't that great for fuel economy either

 

[Joe90_guy]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
It's interesting you only talk of cost. I guess this is an additive companies view.

I'm more interested in high performance top tier engine oils so see what these high performing VMs can deliver. Eg less than 2% shear in a KO90.



What an answer!! I am splitting my sides laughing! Since when exactly were oil companies NOT interested in cost? The biggest lubricating oil companies have dedicated, complex, global procedures specifically charged with taking cost out of their systems. They have become experts at playing the additive companies off against each other and have not the slightest compunction about lumbering the AddCo's with the entire cost of development programs or sorting out global Tox'n'Pox registration.

Okay, I'll concede that if you're formulating absolute top-tier stuff, cost is a lesser issue than it might otherwise be but exactly what percentage of the global market does this represent? 1%? 2%? Let's be generous and say 5%. For those of us lesser mortals that have to live in the 95% world of 'normal' lubricants, maybe you could occasionally wave to us from your ivory tower as we drive past in our Kia's and Ford's.

What a joke. Still p'ing myself laughing. This really has made my day!


Strange response.

I am one of these oil company guys, who sometimes does component up formulating, with in-house components, or boosting market general offers where specification demands drive the formulation requirements. Not cost targets and certainly not relying on single adcos. VMs are an important lever in the ingredient box and there is no way you are meeting top tier specifications like BMW LL04, VW 505 01 or 504 / 507 on OCP stuff. (Nor high VI PMAs)

These specs are a huge part of the European market so don't pretend everyone is driving around in cars using 10W-40 A3/B4 with OCP VM. I can't think of any 5W on OCP

I guess this is the difference between commodity lubricants and technology leading stuff...


First, not one European 5W on OCP? Really? You need to get out more.

Second, so Euro 10W40 is dead is it? Who knew? You really do need to get out more.

Third, 'this is the difference between commodity lubricants and technology leading stuff'? Wow! This is honestly and truly what you think??? You need to get a life man...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
350VI oils aren't that great for fuel economy either


Sorry top cherry pick, but could you please expound on this ?

BITOG lore is that a constant viscosity with temperature is the perfect oil, but as per my warmup thread, and your commentary of sequence IV...

My take is that if we had a constant (say, for 101 sake) 10cst from freezing to 150C, then Anti Wear additives and FMs would need to be fully functional from freezing all the way to the top...boundary/mixed would be there form the second the key is turned.

Do we have these additives ?

Is that why the mentioned "350" aren't that good for economy ?

 

[bobbydavro]

I'm not sure why I am getting so much grief. I added to the thread, people are miss understanding and taking things out of context.

Joe seems to have a massive chip on his shoulder about something.

Enjoy the rest of the thread Im not wasting my time anymore to argue about oil on the Internet.

 

[Joe90_guy]

Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away.
When danger rears it's ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes Brave Sir Robin turned about
He gallantly chickened out...

 

[kschachn]

Boy that helps to improve the opinion of you

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away.
When danger rears it's ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes Brave Sir Robin turned about
He gallantly chickened out...

 

[bobbydavro]

I have nothing to gain by sharing knowledge on the Internet of someone who wants to just argue.

My e-peen is staying in my trousers