High Temp Deposit Tests - M1, GC, Auto-RX mix

[Pablo]

We digressed a bit, but copper plating does not equal solid copper. Although plated copper appears as a solid to us, it is not and often has plating salts and organics trapped in the plating. I was merely suggesting use of some copper tubing.

Regardless - the title is "High Temp Deposit Tests" so maybe it's irrelevant. I would like to see how much the mass of the penny increased though.

 

[JAG]

I stumbled on another current thread that is similar in nature to this one. Note the temps are much higher in the tests in the thread linked here compared to my tests.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...4605#Post798259

 

[427Z06]

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Does this pic reflect the contents of your SAE papers? It's an Audi V6 after 122k of 10k intervals on Syntec 5w-50...not a "narrow range" oil.

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Love the pic, but let's remember, this is a sample size of 1 with no other data presented and/or collected on other engine parameters.

 

[BrianWC]

I thought that group IV and V didn't need as much VII to meet multigrade characteristics...but I know what you mean.

 

[Auto-Union]

If the VIIs were breaking down, why not here? This is one of the few examples of a engine/oil combo under controlled conditions. In one year, I have had probally 5 different oils in my car, this had ONE over 122k at the same interval. Unique, in my book.

 

[TeeDub]

Auto Union,

I'm not talking about cosmetic deposits on the low temp, valvetrain components...I'm talking about high temp deposits on the piston skirts, in the ring grooves/lands and inside the turbocharger housing.

Since your Audi V-6 is not turbocharged, has a modest power density ( in terms of Hp/ci),and has a decent sump capacity, even an average quality, synthetic will work just fine. It's really the 1.8L and 2.0L, VW/Audi turbos that are the bad actors here.


TD

 

[q2bruiser]

JAG -

I believe it was a very cool test ... thanks for sharing it. Whether or not it conforms to one of the plethora of standards is not the issue. I do believe it reveals "some" strength or weakness of the oils tested.

Please do more and don't let those that sleep with protractors bother you.

JKH

 

[JAG]

Thanks q2bruiser. I will do more testing. After some thought over the last few days, I've decided to do some more tests that produce varnish without any metals such as pennies added to the cups. There are many kinds of deposits and the deposits in these tests are just one type and probably not the most important type. We don't hear of people saying "Check out these crusty deposits in my engine!". Other than piston rings and turbos, the deposits in most engines, if present, are varnish or sludge (sludge is a low temperature deposit that I never get in my high temperature tests). I have produced varnish in many past tests but did not take pictures or post the results. Actually, take a look at the picture linked below. Look at the cups on the left and right in particular. About 1 cm up from the bottom of the inside of the cup and all the way to the top, you can see black varnish from tests of long ago. The varnish is very hard and thin. This surface was not in direct contact with the oils that produced that varnish. The surface is akin to a surface inside an engine that only gets evaporated or lightly splashed oil on it. What I need to do is find some cups that have no varnish so I can test for varnish in future tests.
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h294/groftja/DSC01994.jpg

As an aside, Delo 15w40 produced a thick sticky slightly brown varnish on the BOTTOM of a cup in one test I did while M1 5w30 produced no deposits at all in the same conditions. I then poured out the Delo and added fresh Lubromoly 0W-40 oil to the varnished cup and heated it which dissolved all of the sticky varnish left behind by Delo. If you can get to the varnish before it cures, it dissolves quite readily. If not, forget it. It needs super solvent to clean it!

 

[Rick20]

I agree. The longer any type deposit sits in a motor, the tougher it becomes. They are constantly being backed from the metal surfaces they cover, because the metal part can not release heat. Deposits act like insulation, not a good thing.

 

[OriginHacker21]

A big thank you to JAG for this test! For an average joe who doesn't know much about chemistry - this test is interesting and awesome. Deposits left over from oil are very important to the engine life so this interests all us - regardless of our engine type. Please keep up the great work and let us know if you need help getting a particular oil / help with costs.

 

[4esorselrahc]

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OK so in order to properly lubricate pennies a person should avoid M1 0W40 and stick with Castrol 0W30.What does this test tell us about properly lubricating IC engines?

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It tells us we should not melt down those useless pennies in order to build engines.

Any other questions?

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Agreed! I think is a good experiment showing the effect of heating a penny in a given oil, but how does this apply to the internals of an engine? Engines have considerably different metal content/surfaces than the average penny huh?
I would think the test would be more informative if the materials were more engine like (as in the inner valve cover or valve/camshafts). Last time I checked there wasn't much copper in there.

 

[JAG]

If I was trying to predict or generate specific engine deposits with this particular test, I would have said so. That was not the intent.

 

[427Z06]

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If the VIIs were breaking down, why not here? This is one of the few examples of a engine/oil combo under controlled conditions. In one year, I have had probally 5 different oils in my car, this had ONE over 122k at the same interval. Unique, in my book.

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Controlled conditions? We don't know what the conditions were for the past 122K miles in this engine. It's possible that cheap dino would of replicated these results.

 

[Steve S]

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JAG,

Most wide range, multigrade oils use low molecular weight basestocks and lots of polymeric thickener, so I would not expect them to perform well on this test. These results are why I think it's STUPID to run a wide range (0w-40/5w-50) synthetic in a high temperature, gas turbo application. Even a Group III based, 5w-40 is not going to hold up all that well in these types of situations, although it will be marginally better than a 0w-40.

Unless you live in a very cold area and/or have a highly modified engine, you best bet for turbo operation is a thicker & very thermally stable, xw-30 synthetic. Something like GC, the Redline 5w30/10w-30 or the Amsoil Series 3000/5w30 or 10w30, Four Stroke Marine oil (HT/HS of 3.65 Cp, Noack of 4.8%)....For the highly modified motors, I'd recommend a PAO/Ester based 5w-40 or 10w-40, ie something like Mobil Delvac 1, the 10w-40 Mobil 1 MC oil, Redline, Amsoil, etc.

The SAE 0w-40's (and to a lesser extend 5w-50's), are simply a marketing gimic for uninformed customers who don't understand oil formulation and the tradeoffs you have to make. I don't care how many factory fill applications you oil is used in either, since that's mainly a low bidder situation where mega-corporations (EOM, Shell and Castrol/BP) have the edge.

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Uninformed customers don't usually gravitate toward oW40 and 5W50 oils.....do they?

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What about class 8 vehicles?

 

[another Todd]

Jag, good test. I have comment and one question. I think in the future, your tests should all be done with the same year penny as the coating formula changes from time to time (or use copper pipe as was previously brought up).

And for the record, since you do a lot of testing...what oil do you use, and in what engines?

 

[JAG]

Hi another Todd, yes I'll use same year pennies in the future. I have an 2003 VW GTI 1.8T, an oil bruiser. I've used many synthetics in it: M1 0W-40 (API SL), Valvoline Synpower 5W-40 (API SL), Amsoil 5W-40 (old version), Gold GC, Syntec 5W-40, Lubromoly 5W-40, Lubromoly 0W-40, M1 10W-40 MX4T (motorcycle oil), M1 0W-40 (API SM). I just got some Green GC and will use that next. I switched from the Gold GC because I got a little bit of oil consumption with it in 5k miles. Got much more consumption with Syntec 5W-40 which gave me a pretty bad disdain for that oil, at least when paired with this particular engine. M1 0W-40 works well in this engine in terms of oil consumption, gas mileage and engine sounds during cold starts, although it doesn't make pretty UOAs. I could say more but don't know if you wanted a play by play summary of each oil so I'll stop here. If any one of these oils interests you, let me know and I'll give my experience with it.

 

[jdean]

Magnesium in engine oil formulations especially in diesel engines are not not thermally stable. Due to the high heat this will allow for deposits to form from the ring to the crown of the piston.

 

[another Todd]

OK JAG, I get the picture. You don't have one favorite that you stick with. Come to think of it, over the years I have lots of different brands/weights too. Thanx

 

[Auto-Union]

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If the VIIs were breaking down, why not here? This is one of the few examples of a engine/oil combo under controlled conditions. In one year, I have had probally 5 different oils in my car, this had ONE over 122k at the same interval. Unique, in my book.

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Controlled conditions? We don't know what the conditions were for the past 122K miles in this engine. It's possible that cheap dino would of replicated these results.

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Oh, do you mean dino oil like this:

Yeah, I'll go on a limb and assert the first engine was "controlled conditions". Known oil and identical interval from new to 122k is the definintion of "controlled" for the sake of this group discussion. Unless you know of any dual-engine vehicles we can have ~absolute~ controled comparison, this is as good as it gets.

 

[Auto-Union]

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Magnesium in engine oil formulations especially in diesel engines are not not thermally stable. Due to the high heat this will allow for deposits to form from the ring to the crown of the piston.

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Mg oxidizes into a mineral, Periclase. MgO, iirc.