High Performance vs Ultra High Performance Tires

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Getting off point sorry.....Warranty on tires means nothing to me. Grip does.

Im out of the track scene now with the GTI, Talking tires is like talking Oil everyone has an opinion and what works on one application and driving style wont work on another.

It is what it is. Trial and error like everything else with cars.

Jeff


you seem to be reading half the replies then misunderstanding what they were saying then posting off on a tangent.
I suggest reading and understanding the posts before replying.

also both extreme and max performance are Dot tires.
There is a separate tirerack category for track tires.
(since the op was talking about tirerack)

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I disagree with capriracer there is no tire in the UHP class that is S or T rated. Those speed rated tires fall under a different category. This thread is getting more complicated then it had to be. What interest does the op have in these tires and what is the application?

And capriracer stating uhp all season tires are grippy as compared to what? I've used them ona track and they SUCK for grip. So where are you coming from?

So capri you would take a UHP all season tire to laguna seca and feel ccompetitive? Would you use a All season to autox and feel competitive?

Don't think so.

And I'm not talking about track only tires either. I have tracked numerous uhp tires in my daily driven Evos of past. Even with awd all season tires suck. They are good ona dd car for going back and forth to work and that's about it. Most of the all season uhp tires suck in the snow any way.

Summer tire compounds should not be used in areas where outside temp is below freezing. That is where uhp all season are Better. BUT that is the only exception that I have personally seen.

All depends on what car and what application your seeking op.

Jeff


I'm afraid my post was misinterpreted. Allow me to start over.

UHP tires are V speed rated and higher.

That can be subdivided into All Season, Summer, Max Performance Summer.

I think it is obvious what All Season means. In this sub category, tires have at least some winter snow traction - sometimes a lot. They may also have sacrificed dry grip for long wear.

Summer means the tire doesn't have provisions for snow traction - and the tires may or may not have high levels of dry grip, depending on whether the tire is designed for long wear or not.

And Max Performance? Tire Rack throws any tire whose intent is to have a HUGE amount of dry grip into this category. Clearly, these can only be summer only tires - and Tire Rack even adds this to the name of the category. But for some reason, they don't say "UHP" - which if you look at what tires are in this category, they are all V speed rated or higher.

Also clearly, any "Track Day" tires would be in this category - although there may be ah ... let's call them "Less than Track Day" tires in this category as some of these tires are compromised for use on the street.

But in trying to address the OP, I have added to the confusion, so allow me to clear this up.

I suspect that Tire Rack has V and higher speed rated tires in a category labeled "High Performance" because these tires are further compromised by Rolling Resistance - in spite of their being V and higher speed rated - and that's because these are OE (Original Equipment) tires. It is not uncommon for car manufacturers to specify low levels of Rolling Resistance, which is obtained by sacrificing grip and/or treadwear.

At one point in time, "High Performance" tires would have been H rated tires - with a smattering of V rated tires - but the market has moved away from this kind of subdivision in 2 forms.

1) H rated tires are now more designed for regular street usage.

2) The "performance" in "High Performance" isn't all that high compared to UHP's.

My point about S and T rated tires not containing any "Track Day" tires was to try to explain the categories - and S and T rated tires would NEVER be included in "UHP" because of the speed rating. The fact that they also do not contain "Track Day" tires is about the type of vehicles that would call for S and T rated tires.

I hope that clears things up.

 

[GC4lunch]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
if performance is what your after and doesn't snow where you live skip the all season ties all together.


+1

+10

 

[GC4lunch]

Originally Posted By: Rand
UHP-all seasons are nice if you live somewhere it gets cold.


Not cold, but snowy -- as long as the snow is not more than 1/2" to 1" deep. The difference in all-season tires is that they have tread compounds that are modified to allow snow and water to stick to the tread, rather than to shed water from the tread. Most all-season tires have a relatively hard tread compound, compared to a softer tread compound for non all-season tires. When the weather gets cold, the treads of both the all-season tires and the non all-season tires get harder, but, because the baseline for the all-season tires is harder at temperate levels, all-season tires also have harder tread compounds at lower temperatures.

At lower temperatures, when no snow is present, a tire with a softer tread compound that does not have water sticking to the tread will handle and brake better than a tire with a relatively softer tread compound that has a dry tread.

 

[GC4lunch]

Originally Posted By: randomhero439
When choosing a UHP all-season think about this: They are designed to maximize 3-season performance, and handle a unplanned snow better than a summer tire.


No. An all-season tire is designed to handle an unplanned light snow better than a non all-season tire, which cannot handle snowy conditions at all. But for three (and a half) seasons, there is no contest: for braking (the most important task of any tire) and handling, a non all-season tire will whip any all-season tire under any non-snow condition.

 

[GC4lunch]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I think it is obvious what All Season means. In this sub category, tires have at least some winter snow traction - sometimes a lot. They may also have sacrificed dry grip for long wear.

Summer means the tire doesn't have provisions for snow traction


No disagreement here with the statements above; but I would emend (as opposed to amend) your statement with the caution that there is no industry standard that defines what is a "summer" tire. There are "tires" (as we have known them for more than a century), and there a subcategory of tires (again undefined) that are called "all-season tires"; and what distinguishes the latter is that "all-season" tires have been designed with tread compounds that counter the natural tendency of a rubber compound to shed water, i.e., to allow the tire to stick to snow on the ground or -- alternatively -- to promote hydroplaning on wet pavement.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
No disagreement here with the statements above; but I would emend (as opposed to amend) your statement with the caution that there is no industry standard that defines what is a "summer" tire. There are "tires" (as we have known them for more than a century), and there a subcategory of tires (again undefined) that are called "all-season tires"; and what distinguishes the latter is that "all-season" tires have been designed with tread compounds that counter the natural tendency of a rubber compound to shed water, i.e., to allow the tire to stick to snow on the ground or -- alternatively -- to promote hydroplaning on wet pavement.


No disagreement as well, but I would add that I'm of the opinion that tread pattern plays a larger role than tread compound - but it is hardly a point worth arguing over as whatever the tire is made of and whatever tread pattern is on there is unchangeable and sorting out what is causing the improvement in snow traction is a job for the design engineers.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
No disagreement here with the statements above; but I would emend (as opposed to amend) your statement with the caution that there is no industry standard that defines what is a "summer" tire. There are "tires" (as we have known them for more than a century), and there a subcategory of tires (again undefined) that are called "all-season tires"; and what distinguishes the latter is that "all-season" tires have been designed with tread compounds that counter the natural tendency of a rubber compound to shed water, i.e., to allow the tire to stick to snow on the ground or -- alternatively -- to promote hydroplaning on wet pavement.


No disagreement as well, but I would add that I'm of the opinion that tread pattern plays a larger role than tread compound - but it is hardly a point worth arguing over as whatever the tire is made of and whatever tread pattern is on there is unchangeable and sorting out what is causing the improvement in snow traction is a job for the design engineers.

The conversation about how water/snow sticks to rubber (or not) is all starting to sound really familiar. Like maybe six years ago.

I'll just point out that technology has moved on immensely in recent years. The large majority of tires sold are all seasons, so there's been a lot of experience designing, redesigning, and reworking tires. There may be some compromises, but it's gotten really good. And as you stated and I've heard from elsewhere, tread design can be even more important than rubber chemistry.

I also remember the Pirelli P Zero Nero M+S. Supposedly just a different rubber compound and a carcass designed to increase pressure at the contact patch (that's what a Pirelli rep told me). Sucked big time in the snow from my experience. So what do they do? They redesign it as the "Pinna" line with lots of sipes, which most people noticed weren't in the original version. And this eventually became the P Zero Nero All-Season.

There's pretty much no viable market for non all-season tires that will stay pliable in low temperatures. So if that's what you need (even without snow) you get all-seasons. I was recently thinking of upgrading to Continental ExtremeContact DW, but the tests of the Michelin Pilot A/S 3 is giving me a reason to maybe get those.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
There's pretty much no viable market for non all-season tires that will stay pliable in low temperatures. So if that's what you need (even without snow) you get all-seasons.


Someone forgot to tell Nokian this, as they have (or at least had in the past), ONE tire line which had a definite SUMMER tread pattern, but it was compounded to handle DRY northern arctic winter temps without freezing.

I forgot what it is/was called, anyone know??

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
There's pretty much no viable market for non all-season tires that will stay pliable in low temperatures. So if that's what you need (even without snow) you get all-seasons.


Someone forgot to tell Nokian this, as they have (or at least had in the past), ONE tire line which had a definite SUMMER tread pattern, but it was compounded to handle DRY northern arctic winter temps without freezing.

I forgot what it is/was called, anyone know??

I've heard of Nokian making a tire for cold climates short of snow - at least suitable for cold temps in the 30s F. However, there's not much of a market for such tires in the United States. Nokian is generally no more than a bit player in the US for anything except their winter tires. I see they only market two "summer" tires for the US market, and then only in limited sizes. And even then I believe that the big multinational tire companies are dominating the market for winter tires.

I remember driving between Lake Tahoe and Reno in high 30s F temps on Pirelli P6000 tires. That was interesting.

However, all-season tires are ubiquitous. There are many, many choices out there, with some focusing on dry and wet performance and others better in light snow or ice. Every police vehicle and taxi I see runs on all-seasons. If you really need a tire that can handle high 30s temps without snow, a "3-season tire" with such capabilities is almost mythical. None of the major players (Bridgestone, Goodyear, Continental, Pirelli, Yokohama, Sumitomo, Kumho, Michelin - or their subsidiaries) make any for the US market. I can't even find anything sold from the bit players like Nokian or Vredestein that do it.

Of course everything is a compromise. However, all-season tires dominate the market. Nearly everything I see that's not an all-season or winter tire is sold as a summer tire that's rock hard until properly warmed up and a poor choice for cold ambient temps. Basically all your choices are all-seasons.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w

Of course everything is a compromise. However, all-season tires dominate the market. Nearly everything I see that's not an all-season or winter tire is sold as a summer tire that's rock hard until properly warmed up and a poor choice for cold ambient temps. Basically all your choices are all-seasons.



Which is why I purchased All seasons. They arent the stickiest UHP around but I have a subaru forester.

The tires I have now brake better in the rain than the OEM tires did in the dry.

The ride is firm but not harsh. The cornering ability is more than my 10" of ground clearance vehicle needs.
I'm happy.

Would I run these for auto cross -NO. or if I lived in California.. probably not.

They were inexpensive and a massive upgrade for me. and fit my needs well. If they werent W rated they would most likely fit in the "high performance" category that capriracer mentioned is not very high performance.

They also allow me to get the maximum life from the rolling marshmallows we call snow tires.(blizzack ws-70)

I can run these kumho 4x at least 1 month more than summer tires.

which saves 25-33% life off the snow tires.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: Rand
Would I run these for auto cross -NO. or if I lived in California.. probably not.

They were inexpensive and a massive upgrade for me. and fit my needs well. If they werent W rated they would most likely fit in the "high performance" category that capriracer mentioned is not very high performance.

The large majority of cars in California are running on all-seasons. Some high performance cars come with summer tires, but very few. Even RWD Mercedes or BMW sedans/coupes come with H-rated all-season touring tires. There are certainly better all-seasons out there than 15 years ago, so it's not as much of a compromise as it used to be.

We all have to live with the real world. In any common size there will be dozens of all-seasons and maybe some decent summer tires. However, getting that true "3-season" tire that won't get rock hard in cool weather is next to impossible unless you can persuade one of the big boys to custom make it for you. For my wife's car, the 185/70R14 tires only come in either all-season touring or winter tires.

 

[dla]

I've found this website http://www.barrystiretech.com/ to be extremely helpful. Barry is an engineer for a major tire manufacture and he walk you through tire technology. I'm not going to give it away, but you might be surprised to see what he thinks one of the most important attributes of tire is to consider.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: dla
I've found this website http://www.barrystiretech.com/ to be extremely helpful. Barry is an engineer for a major tire manufacture and he walk you through tire technology.

And his BITOG screen name is CapriRacer and he already voiced his opinion in this thread.

He's a great asset here, indeed.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
If you really need a tire that can handle high 30s temps without snow, a "3-season tire" with such capabilities is almost mythical.


It may very well be "mythical", but my BFG g force Super Sport all seasons at least seem to stick very well down into the upper 20s ambients, despite being the W speed rated variety.

Maybe it was the parent company's (Michelin) compounding tech which allows for this??

Some nuts actually DO use this tire for autocross/open tracking sessions, it sticks that well in the dry (but yes, of course will 'chunk' given the 'sipey' all season tread pattern when doing these activities).

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
If you really need a tire that can handle high 30s temps without snow, a "3-season tire" with such capabilities is almost mythical.


It may very well be "mythical", but my BFG g force Super Sport all seasons at least seem to stick very well down into the upper 20s ambients, despite being the W speed rated variety.

Maybe it was the parent company's (Michelin) compounding tech which allows for this??

Some nuts actually DO use this tire for autocross/open tracking sessions, it sticks that well in the dry (but yes, of course will 'chunk' given the 'sipey' all season tread pattern when doing these activities).

No because you have all seasons. what you quoted was him talking about the fact that most summer tires turn into "hard plastic" around 30F

My W rated kumho 4x maintain traction also.... because the are all-seasons.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
If you really need a tire that can handle high 30s temps without snow, a "3-season tire" with such capabilities is almost mythical.


It may very well be "mythical", but my BFG g force Super Sport all seasons at least seem to stick very well down into the upper 20s ambients, despite being the W speed rated.

My reference was to the the "3-season" tire that GC4lunch has been mentioning here for years. He's been of the opinion that rubber compounds are the most important aspect of tire design. It's always the same theme that all-seasons are designed for water to stick to the tread and that the ideal tire for wet would be rubber designed to shed water. He generally discounts tread design and once even said a slick might be ideal on wet pavement and that the ability to channel standing water was overrated because roads are crowned in this country. Of course I manage to find lots of standing water. My street was almost like a stream during some heavy rains and I've even driven through the water from a broken fire hydrant.

All-seasons have gotten very good. Right now they probably trail with dry handling, but some are very good with wet weather because of tread and carcass design. Nearly all the summer tires are designed for a larger contact patch which affects hydro planing resistance. Everything is a compromise.

 

[krzyss]

I have seen difference between summer (P Zero) and all season (Toyo proxes 4 plus) onm wet.
Summer tires were much better.

Krzys

 

[SHOZ]

I use to run dedicated summer stickys with the Dunlop Direzza, which was a great tire. It lasted about 25k and three track days.

I now have some Ventus S1 noble2 Z rated(Ultra High Performance All-Season)in a taller series, 50 vs 45. So far they are great. And they are rated for light snow. I don't usually drive the car in the winter but would like to have the option.

Non directional which is good because I have 225s in the front and 245s in the rear. I can swap them if I want side to side.

 

[cutlassvillager]

Originally Posted By: krzyss
I have seen difference between summer (P Zero) and all season (Toyo proxes 4 plus) onm wet.
Summer tires were much better.

Krzys


I have also noticed a difference in wet between the directional all season tire I had (Michelin Pilot Sport Plus A/S) and my current Michelin Pilot Super Sport summer tires. The summer tires perform better in the wet/standing water. I also have 225 and 245s so the non-directional tires are nice for rotation.