High Flow Oil Filter
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OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I'll show you your major disconnect in potential scenarios that you obviously cannot conceive. This should be your missing key to understanding what's going on..
I am here to help
So, in the below scenario ..with visual aids ..can you see how a filter's resistance ..IN TERMS OF POTENTIAL PSID can change ..even at the same flow rate?
It's a pretty simple example.
If the oil flow rate and viscosity in both sketches you show above is exactly the same, then the psid across the filter has to be exactly the same in both sketches. If you can't understand this then you will always be mis-guided in your thinking on what's really going on.
Seriously ... Please explain to me how the filter's psid in the top sketch can be higher than the filter's psid in the lower sketch if the oil flow rate and viscosity is the same in both sketches. If the oil flow and viscosity is NOT the same in both sketches, then elaborate and tell me why.
Ummmm, look at the pictures.
The first picture the first "gap" is the filter. There is nothing on the other side of the filter, so the biggest restriction IS the filter; the pressure differential here is ALL the filter; there is no pressure on the other side yet, since the fluid meets no resistance.
The second picture, the first "gap" again is the filter, but the SECOND gap is the ENGINE. This gap is much smaller. Since the engine is FAR more restrictive than the filter, there is no pressure differential caused by the filter; the same pressure exists on either side of the filter because the restriction is greater at the far end.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I'll show you your major disconnect in potential scenarios that you obviously cannot conceive. This should be your missing key to understanding what's going on..
I am here to help
So, in the below scenario ..with visual aids ..can you see how a filter's resistance ..IN TERMS OF POTENTIAL PSID can change ..even at the same flow rate?
It's a pretty simple example.
If the oil flow rate and viscosity in both sketches you show above is exactly the same, then the psid across the filter has to be exactly the same in both sketches. If you can't understand this then you will always be mis-guided in your thinking on what's really going on.
Seriously ... Please explain to me how the filter's psid in the top sketch can be higher than the filter's psid in the lower sketch if the oil flow rate and viscosity is the same in both sketches. If the oil flow and viscosity is NOT the same in both sketches, then elaborate and tell me why.
Ummmm, look at the pictures.
The first picture the first "gap" is the filter. There is nothing on the other side of the filter, so the biggest restriction IS the filter; the pressure differential here is ALL the filter; there is no pressure on the other side yet, since the fluid meets no resistance.
The second picture, the first "gap" again is the filter, but the SECOND gap is the ENGINE. This gap is much smaller. Since the engine is FAR more restrictive than the filter, there is no pressure differential caused by the filter; the same pressure exists on either side of the filter because the restriction is greater at the far end.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Ummmm, look at the pictures.
The first picture the first "gap" is the filter. There is nothing on the other side of the filter, so the biggest restriction IS the filter; the pressure differential here is ALL the filter; there is no pressure on the other side yet, since the fluid meets no resistance.
The second picture, the first "gap" again is the filter, but the SECOND gap is the ENGINE. This gap is much smaller. Since the engine is FAR more restrictive than the filter, there is no pressure differential caused by the filter; the same pressure exists on either side of the filter because the restriction is greater at the far end.
Yes, I get all that and I don't think you are seeing it either.
So answer this. In the top sketch what is the oil pump pressure on the filter? What is the flow volume? If the flow volume in both scenarios is the exactly the same then the psid across the filter has to be the same in both scenarios. That is the physics of fluid flow ... it has to obey the physical laws.
The only way you could have more psid across the filter in sketch #1 is if the flow volume was much higher than in sketch #2. And there is no way the oil pump will be at the same supply pressure to push the same gpm through a filter with no back pressure. Think of sketch #1 as a dry filter start-up scenario after an oil change. This is exactly what happens, and the reason the oil light or oil pressure gauge doesn't build pressure for a few seconds is because the free flowing filter does not cause the pump to make any pressure. Once the oil hits the more restrictive engine, then the oil pressure starts to build. But the psid across the filter is the same in that dry start-up condition as it is after the engine is filled with oil ... because the gpm is the same in both cases (ie, X gpm at 800 RPM for a positive displacement pump that is not in pressure relief mode).
If there was 80 psi supply pressure in both scenarios, then the gpm going through the filter only scenario would be HUGE compared to the scenario of the filter and engine. In sketch #1 the pump's supply pressure does not build much until the oil hits the more restrictive engine circuit.
Are you seeing what I'm saying? The basic fact is that if the same gpm and viscosity of oil is going through a filter - regardless if it's on a bench or mounted to an engine - then the psid has to be the same. Just like if you put X voltage on a resistor if it's alone or in a complex circuit ... in both cases Y amps will be flowing through it. Also, in order to flow Y amps through less resistance, it takes less V ... just like it takes less pump pressure to push the same gpm through a filter only vs. a more restrictive filter+engine circuit. It's easy to see.
Ummmm, look at the pictures.
The first picture the first "gap" is the filter. There is nothing on the other side of the filter, so the biggest restriction IS the filter; the pressure differential here is ALL the filter; there is no pressure on the other side yet, since the fluid meets no resistance.
The second picture, the first "gap" again is the filter, but the SECOND gap is the ENGINE. This gap is much smaller. Since the engine is FAR more restrictive than the filter, there is no pressure differential caused by the filter; the same pressure exists on either side of the filter because the restriction is greater at the far end.
Yes, I get all that and I don't think you are seeing it either.
So answer this. In the top sketch what is the oil pump pressure on the filter? What is the flow volume? If the flow volume in both scenarios is the exactly the same then the psid across the filter has to be the same in both scenarios. That is the physics of fluid flow ... it has to obey the physical laws.
The only way you could have more psid across the filter in sketch #1 is if the flow volume was much higher than in sketch #2. And there is no way the oil pump will be at the same supply pressure to push the same gpm through a filter with no back pressure. Think of sketch #1 as a dry filter start-up scenario after an oil change. This is exactly what happens, and the reason the oil light or oil pressure gauge doesn't build pressure for a few seconds is because the free flowing filter does not cause the pump to make any pressure. Once the oil hits the more restrictive engine, then the oil pressure starts to build. But the psid across the filter is the same in that dry start-up condition as it is after the engine is filled with oil ... because the gpm is the same in both cases (ie, X gpm at 800 RPM for a positive displacement pump that is not in pressure relief mode).
If there was 80 psi supply pressure in both scenarios, then the gpm going through the filter only scenario would be HUGE compared to the scenario of the filter and engine. In sketch #1 the pump's supply pressure does not build much until the oil hits the more restrictive engine circuit.
Are you seeing what I'm saying? The basic fact is that if the same gpm and viscosity of oil is going through a filter - regardless if it's on a bench or mounted to an engine - then the psid has to be the same. Just like if you put X voltage on a resistor if it's alone or in a complex circuit ... in both cases Y amps will be flowing through it. Also, in order to flow Y amps through less resistance, it takes less V ... just like it takes less pump pressure to push the same gpm through a filter only vs. a more restrictive filter+engine circuit. It's easy to see.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Ummmm, look at the pictures.
The first picture the first "gap" is the filter. There is nothing on the other side of the filter, so the biggest restriction IS the filter; the pressure differential here is ALL the filter; there is no pressure on the other side yet, since the fluid meets no resistance.
The second picture, the first "gap" again is the filter, but the SECOND gap is the ENGINE. This gap is much smaller. Since the engine is FAR more restrictive than the filter, there is no pressure differential caused by the filter; the same pressure exists on either side of the filter because the restriction is greater at the far end.
Yes, I get all that and I don't think you are seeing it either.
So answer this. In the top sketch what is the oil pump pressure on the filter? What is the flow volume? If the flow volume in both scenarios is the exactly the same then the psid across the filter has to be the same in both scenarios. That is the physics of fluid flow ... it has to obey the physical laws.
The only way you could have more psid across the filter in sketch #1 is if the flow volume was much higher than in sketch #2. And there is no way the oil pump will be at the same supply pressure to push the same gpm through a filter with no back pressure. Think of sketch #1 as a dry filter start-up scenario after an oil change. This is exactly what happens, and the reason the oil light or oil pressure gauge doesn't build pressure for a few seconds is because the free flowing filter does not cause the pump to make any pressure. Once the oil hits the more restrictive engine, then the oil pressure starts to build. But the psid across the filter is the same in that dry start-up condition as it is after the engine is filled with oil ... because the gpm is the same in both cases (ie, X gpm at 800 RPM for a positive displacement pump that is not in pressure relief mode).
If there was 80 psi supply pressure in both scenarios, then the gpm going through the filter only scenario would be HUGE compared to the scenario of the filter and engine. In sketch #1 the pump's supply pressure does not build much until the oil hits the more restrictive engine circuit.
Are you seeing what I'm saying? The basic fact is that if the same gpm and viscosity of oil is going through a filter - regardless if it's on a bench or mounted to an engine - then the psid has to be the same. Just like if you put X voltage on a resistor if it's alone or in a complex circuit ... in both cases Y amps will be flowing through it. Also, in order to flow Y amps through less resistance, it takes less V ... just like it takes less pump pressure to push the same gpm through a filter only vs. a filter + engine circuit. It's easy to see.
psid is PSI differential. That is, the difference between pressure from one side to the other. Perhaps you are just thinking PSI? In both cases the PSI across the filter is the same. But the PSID; the DIFFERENTIAL pressure is NOT.
In the first scenario, there IS no pressure on the other side; the differential is HUGE.
In the second scenario, with the engine providing a greater restriction, there is essentially equal pressure on either side of the filter, making the differential essentially close to zero.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Ummmm, look at the pictures.
The first picture the first "gap" is the filter. There is nothing on the other side of the filter, so the biggest restriction IS the filter; the pressure differential here is ALL the filter; there is no pressure on the other side yet, since the fluid meets no resistance.
The second picture, the first "gap" again is the filter, but the SECOND gap is the ENGINE. This gap is much smaller. Since the engine is FAR more restrictive than the filter, there is no pressure differential caused by the filter; the same pressure exists on either side of the filter because the restriction is greater at the far end.
Yes, I get all that and I don't think you are seeing it either.
So answer this. In the top sketch what is the oil pump pressure on the filter? What is the flow volume? If the flow volume in both scenarios is the exactly the same then the psid across the filter has to be the same in both scenarios. That is the physics of fluid flow ... it has to obey the physical laws.
The only way you could have more psid across the filter in sketch #1 is if the flow volume was much higher than in sketch #2. And there is no way the oil pump will be at the same supply pressure to push the same gpm through a filter with no back pressure. Think of sketch #1 as a dry filter start-up scenario after an oil change. This is exactly what happens, and the reason the oil light or oil pressure gauge doesn't build pressure for a few seconds is because the free flowing filter does not cause the pump to make any pressure. Once the oil hits the more restrictive engine, then the oil pressure starts to build. But the psid across the filter is the same in that dry start-up condition as it is after the engine is filled with oil ... because the gpm is the same in both cases (ie, X gpm at 800 RPM for a positive displacement pump that is not in pressure relief mode).
If there was 80 psi supply pressure in both scenarios, then the gpm going through the filter only scenario would be HUGE compared to the scenario of the filter and engine. In sketch #1 the pump's supply pressure does not build much until the oil hits the more restrictive engine circuit.
Are you seeing what I'm saying? The basic fact is that if the same gpm and viscosity of oil is going through a filter - regardless if it's on a bench or mounted to an engine - then the psid has to be the same. Just like if you put X voltage on a resistor if it's alone or in a complex circuit ... in both cases Y amps will be flowing through it. Also, in order to flow Y amps through less resistance, it takes less V ... just like it takes less pump pressure to push the same gpm through a filter only vs. a filter + engine circuit. It's easy to see.
psid is PSI differential. That is, the difference between pressure from one side to the other. Perhaps you are just thinking PSI? In both cases the PSI across the filter is the same. But the PSID; the DIFFERENTIAL pressure is NOT.
In the first scenario, there IS no pressure on the other side; the differential is HUGE.
In the second scenario, with the engine providing a greater restriction, there is essentially equal pressure on either side of the filter, making the differential essentially close to zero.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
The second picture, the first "gap" again is the filter, but the SECOND gap is the ENGINE. This gap is much smaller. Since the engine is FAR more restrictive than the filter, there is no pressure differential caused by the filter; the same pressure exists on either side of the filter because the restriction is greater at the far end.
There is definitely still a psid across the filter. It will be much less than the engine of course, but it IS there. If for instance, the engine was flowing 10 gpm, then there might be a 5 psid on the filter. It's never zero, unless the engine is OFF.
The second picture, the first "gap" again is the filter, but the SECOND gap is the ENGINE. This gap is much smaller. Since the engine is FAR more restrictive than the filter, there is no pressure differential caused by the filter; the same pressure exists on either side of the filter because the restriction is greater at the far end.
There is definitely still a psid across the filter. It will be much less than the engine of course, but it IS there. If for instance, the engine was flowing 10 gpm, then there might be a 5 psid on the filter. It's never zero, unless the engine is OFF.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
The second picture, the first "gap" again is the filter, but the SECOND gap is the ENGINE. This gap is much smaller. Since the engine is FAR more restrictive than the filter, there is no pressure differential caused by the filter; the same pressure exists on either side of the filter because the restriction is greater at the far end.
There is definitely still a psid across the filter. It will be much less than the engine of course, but it IS there. If for instance, the engine was flowing 10 gpm, then there might be a 5 psid on the filter. It's never zero, unless the engine is OFF.
You think it is that high?
If I remember correctly, Gary actually tested this and it was something like .5psi. It was ridiculously low.... UNTIL the pump was in bypass IIRC. Then it changed.
Regardless, what Gary is saying, and what I'm saying is that there is a huge differential when the filter is the only source of restriction, but with a much larger restriction upstream, the filter is almost "transparent" to the system.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
The second picture, the first "gap" again is the filter, but the SECOND gap is the ENGINE. This gap is much smaller. Since the engine is FAR more restrictive than the filter, there is no pressure differential caused by the filter; the same pressure exists on either side of the filter because the restriction is greater at the far end.
There is definitely still a psid across the filter. It will be much less than the engine of course, but it IS there. If for instance, the engine was flowing 10 gpm, then there might be a 5 psid on the filter. It's never zero, unless the engine is OFF.
You think it is that high?
If I remember correctly, Gary actually tested this and it was something like .5psi. It was ridiculously low.... UNTIL the pump was in bypass IIRC. Then it changed.
Regardless, what Gary is saying, and what I'm saying is that there is a huge differential when the filter is the only source of restriction, but with a much larger restriction upstream, the filter is almost "transparent" to the system.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
psid is PSI differential. That is, the difference between pressure from one side to the other. Perhaps you are just thinking PSI? In both cases the PSI across the filter is the same. But the PSID; the DIFFERENTIAL pressure is NOT.
I fully know what PSID is. Your sentance in red makes no sense. The "PSI across the filter" IS the PSID. They are the same thing ... the differential pressure across the filter media.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
In the first scenario, there IS no pressure on the other side; the differential is HUGE.
How can it be huge when the oil pump will only need a few PSI to drive the oil through the non-restrictive oil filter. If the oil pump put out 80 psi (like it might in the second sketch), then the GPM would also be HUGE. Don't forget the relationship between flow, pressure and component resistance. Just like Ohm's Law with electricity.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
In the second scenario, with the engine providing a greater restriction, there is essentially equal pressure on either side of the filter, making the differential essentially close to zero.
Sure, but again it is not zero.
So if the pump is putting out the exact same GPM and viscosity oil in both scenarios, is the PSID across the filter the same? From what you've said, I'd have to say your answer is yes. If not, why?
psid is PSI differential. That is, the difference between pressure from one side to the other. Perhaps you are just thinking PSI? In both cases the PSI across the filter is the same. But the PSID; the DIFFERENTIAL pressure is NOT.
I fully know what PSID is. Your sentance in red makes no sense. The "PSI across the filter" IS the PSID. They are the same thing ... the differential pressure across the filter media.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
In the first scenario, there IS no pressure on the other side; the differential is HUGE.
How can it be huge when the oil pump will only need a few PSI to drive the oil through the non-restrictive oil filter. If the oil pump put out 80 psi (like it might in the second sketch), then the GPM would also be HUGE. Don't forget the relationship between flow, pressure and component resistance. Just like Ohm's Law with electricity.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
In the second scenario, with the engine providing a greater restriction, there is essentially equal pressure on either side of the filter, making the differential essentially close to zero.
Sure, but again it is not zero.
So if the pump is putting out the exact same GPM and viscosity oil in both scenarios, is the PSID across the filter the same? From what you've said, I'd have to say your answer is yes. If not, why?
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
The second picture, the first "gap" again is the filter, but the SECOND gap is the ENGINE. This gap is much smaller. Since the engine is FAR more restrictive than the filter, there is no pressure differential caused by the filter; the same pressure exists on either side of the filter because the restriction is greater at the far end.
There is definitely still a psid across the filter. It will be much less than the engine of course, but it IS there. If for instance, the engine was flowing 10 gpm, then there might be a 5 psid on the filter. It's never zero, unless the engine is OFF.
You think it is that high?
If I remember correctly, Gary actually tested this and it was something like .5psi. It was ridiculously low.... UNTIL the pump was in bypass IIRC. Then it changed.
Yes, it's that high ... and probably even higher on some filters.
Flow vs. PSID with 200 deg F Mobil 1, 5w30
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj369/microscale/PureOneflowdata.jpg
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Regardless, what Gary is saying, and what I'm saying is that there is a huge differential when the filter is the only source of restriction, but with a much larger restriction upstream, the filter is almost "transparent" to the system.
But there really is NOT a huge PSID across the filter if there is no back pressure on the filter - this is the point I'm trying to get across. The filter's PSID is only dependent on the GPM going through it and the oil's viscosity (and of course the filter's fixed resistance factor).
If 10 GPM of X viscosity is going through it with 0 psi or 50 psi or 100 psi or 200 psi back pressure from an engine ... it will have the same exact PSID in all cases. It has to if the GPM is the same in all cases. But keep in mind, that in order to get all the same GPM in all those cases, the oil pump supply pressure will be DIFFERENT. That is where I think the disconnect is.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
The second picture, the first "gap" again is the filter, but the SECOND gap is the ENGINE. This gap is much smaller. Since the engine is FAR more restrictive than the filter, there is no pressure differential caused by the filter; the same pressure exists on either side of the filter because the restriction is greater at the far end.
There is definitely still a psid across the filter. It will be much less than the engine of course, but it IS there. If for instance, the engine was flowing 10 gpm, then there might be a 5 psid on the filter. It's never zero, unless the engine is OFF.
You think it is that high?
If I remember correctly, Gary actually tested this and it was something like .5psi. It was ridiculously low.... UNTIL the pump was in bypass IIRC. Then it changed.
Yes, it's that high ... and probably even higher on some filters.
Flow vs. PSID with 200 deg F Mobil 1, 5w30
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj369/microscale/PureOneflowdata.jpg
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Regardless, what Gary is saying, and what I'm saying is that there is a huge differential when the filter is the only source of restriction, but with a much larger restriction upstream, the filter is almost "transparent" to the system.
But there really is NOT a huge PSID across the filter if there is no back pressure on the filter - this is the point I'm trying to get across. The filter's PSID is only dependent on the GPM going through it and the oil's viscosity (and of course the filter's fixed resistance factor).
If 10 GPM of X viscosity is going through it with 0 psi or 50 psi or 100 psi or 200 psi back pressure from an engine ... it will have the same exact PSID in all cases. It has to if the GPM is the same in all cases. But keep in mind, that in order to get all the same GPM in all those cases, the oil pump supply pressure will be DIFFERENT. That is where I think the disconnect is.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I fully know what PSID is. Your sentance in red makes no sense. The "PSI across the filter" IS the PSID. They are the same thing ... the differential pressure across the filter media.
My SENTENCE in red makes perfect sense. If the same oil filter is used in both cases, with the same oil pump, being spun at the same RPM then the one side of the filter is going to see the same pressure in both cases. That is what I was pointing out. I probably should have used AT the filter rather than across, but since I was using across to describe the PSID already, I figured that would be clear. I guess not.
Quote:
Sure, but again it is not zero.
So if the pump is putting out the exact same GPM and viscosity oil in both scenarios, is the PSID across the filter the same? From what you've said, I'd have to say your answer is yes. If not, why?
No, and I've already explained why.
I fully know what PSID is. Your sentance in red makes no sense. The "PSI across the filter" IS the PSID. They are the same thing ... the differential pressure across the filter media.
My SENTENCE in red makes perfect sense. If the same oil filter is used in both cases, with the same oil pump, being spun at the same RPM then the one side of the filter is going to see the same pressure in both cases. That is what I was pointing out. I probably should have used AT the filter rather than across, but since I was using across to describe the PSID already, I figured that would be clear. I guess not.
Quote:
Sure, but again it is not zero.
So if the pump is putting out the exact same GPM and viscosity oil in both scenarios, is the PSID across the filter the same? From what you've said, I'd have to say your answer is yes. If not, why?
No, and I've already explained why.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I fully know what PSID is. Your sentance in red makes no sense. The "PSI across the filter" IS the PSID. They are the same thing ... the differential pressure across the filter media.
My SENTENCE in red makes perfect sense. If the same oil filter is used in both cases, with the same oil pump, being spun at the same RPM then the one side of the filter is going to see the same pressure in both cases.
No it's not (to the red text above) ... this is where the disconnect is.
If the positive displacement oil pump is spun at the same RPM then the same exact GPM is going through both filters. The oil supply pressure on the filter in scenario #1 is WAY less than in scenario #2. That is because it takes WAY LESS oil pressure to push the same GPM through a LESS restrictive element (ie, filter only) vs. a MORE restrictive system (ie, filter AND engine). This is the key point.
Please read that carefully, as this is the point that is being missed.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I fully know what PSID is. Your sentance in red makes no sense. The "PSI across the filter" IS the PSID. They are the same thing ... the differential pressure across the filter media.
My SENTENCE in red makes perfect sense. If the same oil filter is used in both cases, with the same oil pump, being spun at the same RPM then the one side of the filter is going to see the same pressure in both cases.
No it's not (to the red text above) ... this is where the disconnect is.
If the positive displacement oil pump is spun at the same RPM then the same exact GPM is going through both filters. The oil supply pressure on the filter in scenario #1 is WAY less than in scenario #2. That is because it takes WAY LESS oil pressure to push the same GPM through a LESS restrictive element (ie, filter only) vs. a MORE restrictive system (ie, filter AND engine). This is the key point.
Please read that carefully, as this is the point that is being missed.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Sure, but again it is not zero.
So if the pump is putting out the exact same GPM and viscosity oil in both scenarios, is the PSID across the filter the same? From what you've said, I'd have to say your answer is yes. If not, why?
No, and I've already explained why.
So you agree that if the same exact GPM and viscosity is going through the same filter with our without back pressure that the filter's PSID is exactly the same?
We are almost to a break through point.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Sure, but again it is not zero.
So if the pump is putting out the exact same GPM and viscosity oil in both scenarios, is the PSID across the filter the same? From what you've said, I'd have to say your answer is yes. If not, why?
No, and I've already explained why.
So you agree that if the same exact GPM and viscosity is going through the same filter with our without back pressure that the filter's PSID is exactly the same?
We are almost to a break through point.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
But there really is NOT a huge PSID across the filter if there is no back pressure on the filter - this is the point I'm trying to get across. The filter's PSID is only dependent on the GPM going through it and the oil's viscosity (and of course the filter's fixed resistance factor).
If 10 GPM of X viscosity is going through it with 0 psi or 50 psi or 100 psi or 200 psi back pressure from an engine ... it will have the same exact PSID in all cases. It has to if the GPM is the same in all cases. But keep in mind, that in order to get all the same GPM in all those cases, the oil pump supply pressure will be DIFFERENT. That is where I think the disconnect is.
Are you SURE you understand what PSID is?
As per McGraw-Hill:
"The difference in pressure between two points in a fluid-flow system, measured in pounds per square inch. Abbreviated psid."
Now, if we look at diagram #1 and the first "gap" is the oil filter, then obviously, the pressure on the left side has the potential to be MUCH higher than it is on the right side. This of course will vary with the volume the filter media can flow and the function of the bypass valve. Let us pretend there is no bypass and we are moving an astronomical volume of oil, yielding 50psi on the left side. Since there is nothing resisting flow on the other side, when we measure the pressure there, it will be 0psi. This gives us a 50psi differential.
Now, if we look at diagram #2, there is a 3rd, much more restrictive orifice called the ENGINE further downstream. Pressure measured in the same spots as on diagram #1 will show close to identical readings. Meaning the differential will be close to 0psi.
The issue comes into play when we deal with pump relief, which changes the VOLUME of flow through the system and causes fluctuations that show as PSID at the filter. Again, Gary covered this in his actual TESTING of this phenomena.
As for your flow graph, was this tested on an engine? Or is it a purely volume-based pressure drop across the media with an unrestricted orifice on the other side?
It APPEARS to be indicative of Gary's diagram #1 but using much more reasonable flow figures. That is; it is showing the pressure drop across a filter in free-flow to give us a reasonable idea of the filters overall restriction. This makes sense, because actual acting restriction in application has a great number of qualifiers, so one cannot simply throw numbers at it and say "here it is". But knowing what it is in free-flow is at least somewhat useful.
But there really is NOT a huge PSID across the filter if there is no back pressure on the filter - this is the point I'm trying to get across. The filter's PSID is only dependent on the GPM going through it and the oil's viscosity (and of course the filter's fixed resistance factor).
If 10 GPM of X viscosity is going through it with 0 psi or 50 psi or 100 psi or 200 psi back pressure from an engine ... it will have the same exact PSID in all cases. It has to if the GPM is the same in all cases. But keep in mind, that in order to get all the same GPM in all those cases, the oil pump supply pressure will be DIFFERENT. That is where I think the disconnect is.
Are you SURE you understand what PSID is?
As per McGraw-Hill:
"The difference in pressure between two points in a fluid-flow system, measured in pounds per square inch. Abbreviated psid."
Now, if we look at diagram #1 and the first "gap" is the oil filter, then obviously, the pressure on the left side has the potential to be MUCH higher than it is on the right side. This of course will vary with the volume the filter media can flow and the function of the bypass valve. Let us pretend there is no bypass and we are moving an astronomical volume of oil, yielding 50psi on the left side. Since there is nothing resisting flow on the other side, when we measure the pressure there, it will be 0psi. This gives us a 50psi differential.
Now, if we look at diagram #2, there is a 3rd, much more restrictive orifice called the ENGINE further downstream. Pressure measured in the same spots as on diagram #1 will show close to identical readings. Meaning the differential will be close to 0psi.
The issue comes into play when we deal with pump relief, which changes the VOLUME of flow through the system and causes fluctuations that show as PSID at the filter. Again, Gary covered this in his actual TESTING of this phenomena.
As for your flow graph, was this tested on an engine? Or is it a purely volume-based pressure drop across the media with an unrestricted orifice on the other side?
It APPEARS to be indicative of Gary's diagram #1 but using much more reasonable flow figures. That is; it is showing the pressure drop across a filter in free-flow to give us a reasonable idea of the filters overall restriction. This makes sense, because actual acting restriction in application has a great number of qualifiers, so one cannot simply throw numbers at it and say "here it is". But knowing what it is in free-flow is at least somewhat useful.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
But there really is NOT a huge PSID across the filter if there is no back pressure on the filter - this is the point I'm trying to get across. The filter's PSID is only dependent on the GPM going through it and the oil's viscosity (and of course the filter's fixed resistance factor).
If 10 GPM of X viscosity is going through it with 0 psi or 50 psi or 100 psi or 200 psi back pressure from an engine ... it will have the same exact PSID in all cases. It has to if the GPM is the same in all cases. But keep in mind, that in order to get all the same GPM in all those cases, the oil pump supply pressure will be DIFFERENT. That is where I think the disconnect is.
Are you SURE you understand what PSID is?
As per McGraw-Hill:
"The difference in pressure between two points in a fluid-flow system, measured in pounds per square inch. Abbreviated psid."
... please. Yes, I FULLY understand what PSID is. What makes you think I don't? You must not be reading what I've been saying.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Now, if we look at diagram #1 and the first "gap" is the oil filter, then obviously, the pressure on the left side has the potential to be MUCH higher than it is on the right side. This of course will vary with the volume the filter media can flow and the function of the bypass valve. Let us pretend there is no bypass and we are moving an astronomical volume of oil, yielding 50psi on the left side. Since there is nothing resisting flow on the other side, when we measure the pressure there, it will be 0psi. This gives us a 50psi differential.
Sure, OK ... but do you realize how much GPM you would need to flow through JUST a filter in order to build up 50 PSI on the filter's inlet? Wow .. that would be a very high GPM, but let's carry on.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Now, if we look at diagram #2, there is a 3rd, much more restrictive orifice called the ENGINE further downstream. Pressure measured in the same spots as on diagram #1 will show close to identical readings. Meaning the differential will be close to 0psi.
Actually the pressure differential across the filter (it's PSID) would be quite large if you actually could produce 50 PSI of inlet pressure on just a filter - that is because the GPM flow would be HUGE. I think you've pick some very unrealistic numbers for you example ... but, let's keep going.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
The issue comes into play when we deal with pump relief, which changes the VOLUME of flow through the system and causes fluctuations that show as PSID at the filter. Again, Gary covered this in his actual TESTING of this phenomena.
Wait just a minute ... throwing in pump relief will just complicate this discussion. But, you know what - even if the pump is in pressure relief the flow going through the filter and engine is the MAX it could ever be, and it will remain a constant GPM as long as the pump is in relief. The oil volume (GPMs) through the system basically builds in a linear fashion from idle to pump relief pressure, then holds constant as long as the pump is in relief.
The fact is, the filter's PSID is the HIGHEST when the pump is in relief. Also, the engine's oil pressure is highest when the pump is in relief. So what was your point exactly? The filter's PSID does not magically disappear when the pump is in relief ... in fact, the PSID is the highest ever because at pump max pressure the max GPM flow is realized.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
As for your flow graph, was this tested on an engine? Or is it a purely volume-based pressure drop across the media with an unrestricted orifice on the other side?
It doesn't really matter as long as you can measure a GPM going through the filter then you can measure a PSID across the filter because flow causes PSID.
The same holds true for anything that has flow resistance.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
But there really is NOT a huge PSID across the filter if there is no back pressure on the filter - this is the point I'm trying to get across. The filter's PSID is only dependent on the GPM going through it and the oil's viscosity (and of course the filter's fixed resistance factor).
If 10 GPM of X viscosity is going through it with 0 psi or 50 psi or 100 psi or 200 psi back pressure from an engine ... it will have the same exact PSID in all cases. It has to if the GPM is the same in all cases. But keep in mind, that in order to get all the same GPM in all those cases, the oil pump supply pressure will be DIFFERENT. That is where I think the disconnect is.
Are you SURE you understand what PSID is?
As per McGraw-Hill:
"The difference in pressure between two points in a fluid-flow system, measured in pounds per square inch. Abbreviated psid."
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Now, if we look at diagram #1 and the first "gap" is the oil filter, then obviously, the pressure on the left side has the potential to be MUCH higher than it is on the right side. This of course will vary with the volume the filter media can flow and the function of the bypass valve. Let us pretend there is no bypass and we are moving an astronomical volume of oil, yielding 50psi on the left side. Since there is nothing resisting flow on the other side, when we measure the pressure there, it will be 0psi. This gives us a 50psi differential.
Sure, OK ... but do you realize how much GPM you would need to flow through JUST a filter in order to build up 50 PSI on the filter's inlet? Wow .. that would be a very high GPM, but let's carry on.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Now, if we look at diagram #2, there is a 3rd, much more restrictive orifice called the ENGINE further downstream. Pressure measured in the same spots as on diagram #1 will show close to identical readings. Meaning the differential will be close to 0psi.
Actually the pressure differential across the filter (it's PSID) would be quite large if you actually could produce 50 PSI of inlet pressure on just a filter - that is because the GPM flow would be HUGE. I think you've pick some very unrealistic numbers for you example ... but, let's keep going.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
The issue comes into play when we deal with pump relief, which changes the VOLUME of flow through the system and causes fluctuations that show as PSID at the filter. Again, Gary covered this in his actual TESTING of this phenomena.
Wait just a minute ... throwing in pump relief will just complicate this discussion. But, you know what - even if the pump is in pressure relief the flow going through the filter and engine is the MAX it could ever be, and it will remain a constant GPM as long as the pump is in relief. The oil volume (GPMs) through the system basically builds in a linear fashion from idle to pump relief pressure, then holds constant as long as the pump is in relief.
The fact is, the filter's PSID is the HIGHEST when the pump is in relief. Also, the engine's oil pressure is highest when the pump is in relief. So what was your point exactly? The filter's PSID does not magically disappear when the pump is in relief ... in fact, the PSID is the highest ever because at pump max pressure the max GPM flow is realized.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
As for your flow graph, was this tested on an engine? Or is it a purely volume-based pressure drop across the media with an unrestricted orifice on the other side?
It doesn't really matter as long as you can measure a GPM going through the filter then you can measure a PSID across the filter because flow causes PSID.
The same holds true for anything that has flow resistance.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
... please. Yes, I FULLY understand what PSID is. What makes you think I don't? You must not be reading what I've been saying.
LOL indeed!
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Actually the pressure differential across the filter (it's PSID) would be quite large if you actually could produce 50 PSI of inlet pressure on just a filter - that is because the GPM flow would be HUGE. I think you've pick some very unrealistic numbers for you example ... but, let's keep going.
Please explain to me how if I have 100psi on either side of the first orifice (because the second orifice is more restrictive, increasing overall system pressure) how this produces a large differential?
This is the point you were losing Gary... And quite frankly, I'm not getting your logic here either.
Gauge #1 shows 100psi in front of the filter. Gauge #2 shows 99.5psi on the other side of the filter. This is a .5psi differential. This is because orifice #2 "engine" is much smaller than orifice #1 "filter" and increases the pressure of the entire SYSTEM.
Quote:
It doesn't really matter as long as you can measure a GPM going through the filter then you can measure a PSID across the filter because flow causes PSID.
The same holds true for anything that has flow resistance.
Yes it matters! This seems to be the part you are missing. The ENGINE is a MUCH LARGER restriction than the FILTER.
We are dealing with resistance in series here. The second of the series being much more restrictive than the first. The secondary resistance essentially makes the primary resistance "invisible" to the system because the primary resistance is much lower than the secondary resistance!
If you cannot see the difference between testing a filter with no secondary resistance where the only source of the differential is the media itself vs testing the filter WITH a secondary resistance downstream (again, the ENGINE) that is MORE restrictive than the primary resistance, then I don't see this discussion going anywhere.
LOL indeed!
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Actually the pressure differential across the filter (it's PSID) would be quite large if you actually could produce 50 PSI of inlet pressure on just a filter - that is because the GPM flow would be HUGE. I think you've pick some very unrealistic numbers for you example ... but, let's keep going.
Please explain to me how if I have 100psi on either side of the first orifice (because the second orifice is more restrictive, increasing overall system pressure) how this produces a large differential?
This is the point you were losing Gary... And quite frankly, I'm not getting your logic here either.
Gauge #1 shows 100psi in front of the filter. Gauge #2 shows 99.5psi on the other side of the filter. This is a .5psi differential. This is because orifice #2 "engine" is much smaller than orifice #1 "filter" and increases the pressure of the entire SYSTEM.
Quote:
It doesn't really matter as long as you can measure a GPM going through the filter then you can measure a PSID across the filter because flow causes PSID.
The same holds true for anything that has flow resistance.
Yes it matters! This seems to be the part you are missing. The ENGINE is a MUCH LARGER restriction than the FILTER.
We are dealing with resistance in series here. The second of the series being much more restrictive than the first. The secondary resistance essentially makes the primary resistance "invisible" to the system because the primary resistance is much lower than the secondary resistance!
If you cannot see the difference between testing a filter with no secondary resistance where the only source of the differential is the media itself vs testing the filter WITH a secondary resistance downstream (again, the ENGINE) that is MORE restrictive than the primary resistance, then I don't see this discussion going anywhere.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Actually the pressure differential across the filter (it's PSID) would be quite large if you actually could produce 50 PSI of inlet pressure on just a filter - that is because the GPM flow would be HUGE. I think you've pick some very unrealistic numbers for you example ... but, let's keep going.
Please explain to me how if I have 100psi on either side of the first orifice (because the second orifice is more restrictive, increasing overall system pressure) how this produces a large differential?
This is the point you were losing Gary... And quite frankly, I'm not getting your logic here either.
Gauge #1 shows 100psi in front of the filter. Gauge #2 shows 99.5psi on the other side of the filter. This is a .5psi differential. This is because orifice #2 "engine" is much smaller than orifice #1 "filter" and increases the pressure of the entire SYSTEM.
I think you (and Gary) have missed the point I'm trying to make. Please try to understand this next point. If the low restriction filter is the only component the oil is flowing through (sketch #1), the oil pump will NOT produce the same supply pressure that it will have to supply when the flow starts hitting the much more restrictive engine circuit.
Please envision this scenario to help visual this point - assume the oil viscosity is constant during this scenario. The oil filter and engine oil passages are bone dry ... void of any oil whatsoever. The engine is started and is running at 1000 RPM, and the positive displacement oil pump is putting out 3 GPM and is not in relief. The 3 GPM of flow hits the bone dry filter, and since the filter is relatively free flowing compared to the engine, it only produces a 1 PSID. The oil pump supply pressure is only 1 PSI ... meaning it only takes 1 PSI on the inlet side of the filter to push the 3 GPM through the filter. Agree?
NOTE - the oil pump will NOT produce high PSI yet because there is hardly any flow resistance ... it's ONLY the filter, the oil has NOT hit the engine yet.
Now the flow travels towards the engine, and as the flow starts trying to be pushed through the narrow passages that causes the engine to be much more restrictive than the filter, the oil pump starts working harder and the pump's supply pressure starts climbing rapidly. Have you ever watched an oil pressure gauge during an engine start up after an oil change? It takes a few seconds for the oil pressure to show and build up on the gauge. This is why.
So now the oil has filled the engine and is returning to the sump, and the engine is still running at 1000 RPM which means the positive displacement pump is still putting out 3 GPM. But now the pump's supply pressure is 50 PSI instead of 1 PSI. This is because the engine's flow circuit requires 49 PSI to push 3 GPM of oil through it. So the pressure before the filter is 50 PSI (same as pump output), the pressure is 49 PSI just after the filter (filter's PSID = 1), and the sump pressure is 0 PSI.
Does that make sense? I don't think I can say it any more clear.
NOTE - The ONLY way the oil pump could produce 50 PSI before the filter with ONLY the filter in the system (sketch #1), it would have to be pushing TONS of GPM through the filter. This is the point I think is disconnected in Gary's examples with his sketches. You have to say the same GPM is going through the system at all times based on the physical operational characteristics of a positive displacement oil pump.
This is why I keep saying the filter's PSID is the same in both of Gary's sketches. It would be entirely impossible for an automobiles oil pump to produce 50 PSI of supply pressure with just a filter in the system ... that type of oil pump pressure only occurs AFTER the oil hits the engine's resistance.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Quote:
It doesn't really matter as long as you can measure a GPM going through the filter then you can measure a PSID across the filter because flow causes PSID.
The same holds true for anything that has flow resistance.
Yes it matters! This seems to be the part you are missing. The ENGINE is a MUCH LARGER restriction than the FILTER.
I don't think I'm missing this part ... I've said that many many times from the beginning. Go back and read this whole thread to see it.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
We are dealing with resistance in series here. The second of the series being much more restrictive than the first. The secondary resistance essentially makes the primary resistance "invisible" to the system because the primary resistance is much lower than the secondary resistance!
Yes and No ... Not really. As I've said above, the filter PSID is still there. Yes, as I said above ONCE the oil hits the engine then you see pressure on the oil pressure gauge and the pump pressure increases quickly. BUT, if you had pressure gauges before and after the filter you would also see a slight pressure drop (PSID) across the filter ... it's still there, if you could see it.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
If you cannot see the difference between testing a filter with no secondary resistance where the only source of the differential is the media itself vs testing the filter WITH a secondary resistance downstream (again, the ENGINE) that is MORE restrictive than the primary resistance, then I don't see this discussion going anywhere.
I don't think you or Gary really see it actually. Please read my stuff above. If you could run an engine and just let the oil puke out in to the air after it comes out of the filter (no back pressure), you would still have the same exact PSID across the filter regardless if the oil was going into the engine or not.
Why? ... because the PSID is dependent on the FLOW VOLUME (GPMs) and viscosity. With a positive displacement pump you get the same GPMs with or without the engine in the loop as long as the pump is not in relief. My example above shows that.
If you add resistance to the flow system, like the engine, then the pump just has to work harder which causes the pump's output pressure to increase until the pressure relief valve kicks in.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Actually the pressure differential across the filter (it's PSID) would be quite large if you actually could produce 50 PSI of inlet pressure on just a filter - that is because the GPM flow would be HUGE. I think you've pick some very unrealistic numbers for you example ... but, let's keep going.
Please explain to me how if I have 100psi on either side of the first orifice (because the second orifice is more restrictive, increasing overall system pressure) how this produces a large differential?
This is the point you were losing Gary... And quite frankly, I'm not getting your logic here either.
Gauge #1 shows 100psi in front of the filter. Gauge #2 shows 99.5psi on the other side of the filter. This is a .5psi differential. This is because orifice #2 "engine" is much smaller than orifice #1 "filter" and increases the pressure of the entire SYSTEM.
I think you (and Gary) have missed the point I'm trying to make. Please try to understand this next point. If the low restriction filter is the only component the oil is flowing through (sketch #1), the oil pump will NOT produce the same supply pressure that it will have to supply when the flow starts hitting the much more restrictive engine circuit.
Please envision this scenario to help visual this point - assume the oil viscosity is constant during this scenario. The oil filter and engine oil passages are bone dry ... void of any oil whatsoever. The engine is started and is running at 1000 RPM, and the positive displacement oil pump is putting out 3 GPM and is not in relief. The 3 GPM of flow hits the bone dry filter, and since the filter is relatively free flowing compared to the engine, it only produces a 1 PSID. The oil pump supply pressure is only 1 PSI ... meaning it only takes 1 PSI on the inlet side of the filter to push the 3 GPM through the filter. Agree?
NOTE - the oil pump will NOT produce high PSI yet because there is hardly any flow resistance ... it's ONLY the filter, the oil has NOT hit the engine yet.
Now the flow travels towards the engine, and as the flow starts trying to be pushed through the narrow passages that causes the engine to be much more restrictive than the filter, the oil pump starts working harder and the pump's supply pressure starts climbing rapidly. Have you ever watched an oil pressure gauge during an engine start up after an oil change? It takes a few seconds for the oil pressure to show and build up on the gauge. This is why.
So now the oil has filled the engine and is returning to the sump, and the engine is still running at 1000 RPM which means the positive displacement pump is still putting out 3 GPM. But now the pump's supply pressure is 50 PSI instead of 1 PSI. This is because the engine's flow circuit requires 49 PSI to push 3 GPM of oil through it. So the pressure before the filter is 50 PSI (same as pump output), the pressure is 49 PSI just after the filter (filter's PSID = 1), and the sump pressure is 0 PSI.
Does that make sense? I don't think I can say it any more clear.
NOTE - The ONLY way the oil pump could produce 50 PSI before the filter with ONLY the filter in the system (sketch #1), it would have to be pushing TONS of GPM through the filter. This is the point I think is disconnected in Gary's examples with his sketches. You have to say the same GPM is going through the system at all times based on the physical operational characteristics of a positive displacement oil pump.
This is why I keep saying the filter's PSID is the same in both of Gary's sketches. It would be entirely impossible for an automobiles oil pump to produce 50 PSI of supply pressure with just a filter in the system ... that type of oil pump pressure only occurs AFTER the oil hits the engine's resistance.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Quote:
It doesn't really matter as long as you can measure a GPM going through the filter then you can measure a PSID across the filter because flow causes PSID.
The same holds true for anything that has flow resistance.
Yes it matters! This seems to be the part you are missing. The ENGINE is a MUCH LARGER restriction than the FILTER.
I don't think I'm missing this part ... I've said that many many times from the beginning. Go back and read this whole thread to see it.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
We are dealing with resistance in series here. The second of the series being much more restrictive than the first. The secondary resistance essentially makes the primary resistance "invisible" to the system because the primary resistance is much lower than the secondary resistance!
Yes and No ... Not really. As I've said above, the filter PSID is still there. Yes, as I said above ONCE the oil hits the engine then you see pressure on the oil pressure gauge and the pump pressure increases quickly. BUT, if you had pressure gauges before and after the filter you would also see a slight pressure drop (PSID) across the filter ... it's still there, if you could see it.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
If you cannot see the difference between testing a filter with no secondary resistance where the only source of the differential is the media itself vs testing the filter WITH a secondary resistance downstream (again, the ENGINE) that is MORE restrictive than the primary resistance, then I don't see this discussion going anywhere.
I don't think you or Gary really see it actually. Please read my stuff above. If you could run an engine and just let the oil puke out in to the air after it comes out of the filter (no back pressure), you would still have the same exact PSID across the filter regardless if the oil was going into the engine or not.
Why? ... because the PSID is dependent on the FLOW VOLUME (GPMs) and viscosity. With a positive displacement pump you get the same GPMs with or without the engine in the loop as long as the pump is not in relief. My example above shows that.
If you add resistance to the flow system, like the engine, then the pump just has to work harder which causes the pump's output pressure to increase until the pressure relief valve kicks in.
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I think that this is SuperBusa reincarnated.
Sure a filter CAN produce it's own pressure of merit ..at some uncommon flow rate.
That's the real clue here. Using pretty much "racing" scenarios to make the assertion fit.
Your common (even at flow limits of most engines) user never sees any PSID of merit outside of pump relief. Promoting only the obscure and niche as the ONLY valid point is, like our formerly esteem Soopah-Boosah insisted on doing, is being disingenuous.
Racers are the rarity ...not the rule. The average stroke ..and EVEN the hi-per crowd never have to worry about this ..unless their entire lives are spent near the red line.
The filter will show a static
NOW IF YOU CAN (the vast majority CANNOT) actually produce some ungodly volume without hitting the pump relief level ..you MAY get the filter to be a player that's worth mentioning.
Sure a filter CAN produce it's own pressure of merit ..at some uncommon flow rate.
That's the real clue here. Using pretty much "racing" scenarios to make the assertion fit.
Your common (even at flow limits of most engines) user never sees any PSID of merit outside of pump relief. Promoting only the obscure and niche as the ONLY valid point is, like our formerly esteem Soopah-Boosah insisted on doing, is being disingenuous.
Racers are the rarity ...not the rule. The average stroke ..and EVEN the hi-per crowd never have to worry about this ..unless their entire lives are spent near the red line.
The filter will show a static
NOW IF YOU CAN (the vast majority CANNOT) actually produce some ungodly volume without hitting the pump relief level ..you MAY get the filter to be a player that's worth mentioning.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I think that this is SuperBusa reincarnated.
I had to go dig around some more to figure out what this reference to SuperBusa was ... some interesting reading and sounds a lot like this discussion, but I think he’s not totally right with some of his claims either.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Sure a filter CAN produce it's own pressure of merit ..at some uncommon flow rate.
That's the real clue here. Using pretty much "racing" scenarios to make the assertion fit.
Your common (even at flow limits of most engines) user never sees any PSID of merit outside of pump relief. Promoting only the obscure and niche as the ONLY valid point is, like our formerly esteem Soopah-Boosah insisted on doing, is being disingenuous.
Racers are the rarity ...not the rule. The average stroke ..and EVEN the hi-per crowd never have to worry about this ..unless their entire lives are spent near the red line.
The filter will show a static
NOW IF YOU CAN (the vast majority CANNOT) actually produce some ungodly volume without hitting the pump relief level ..you MAY get the filter to be a player that's worth mentioning.
Sounds like you are changing the focus of this discussion. This discussion was about your claim that an oil filter is “extremely resistive to flow” (see your quote below), and the mis-information & confusion about the two sketches you showed. Did you read why I think your sketch #1 is bogus? In your sketch #1, you can not build up any significant oil pump pressure until the flow hits the engine, and therefore, the psid across the filter will be the same as it will be in sketch #2 since the gpm flow is the same in both scenarios.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Now if you're slamming up against the relief on the pump, then all filters are highly resistant to flow. That's why you have a bypass valve. That narrow range is just about all there is to talk about for most (note "most" - there are always exceptions ..terms ..and conditions)
But now you’re saying even in a racing engine with high oil flow the filter is less than 2 psid?
I can’t follow your logic. Isn’t that what I’ve been saying all along? ... that an oil filter is much LESS restrictive than an engine?
From what I’m reading in some of these old threads, it sounds like the filter psid can be as high as 5 to 8 psi on a high volume oil pumped engine (Subarus ?). Yeah, that is a lot less than what the engine causes, but it could be significant to the filter depending on its bypass setting.
I think that this is SuperBusa reincarnated.
I had to go dig around some more to figure out what this reference to SuperBusa was ... some interesting reading and sounds a lot like this discussion, but I think he’s not totally right with some of his claims either.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Sure a filter CAN produce it's own pressure of merit ..at some uncommon flow rate.
That's the real clue here. Using pretty much "racing" scenarios to make the assertion fit.
Your common (even at flow limits of most engines) user never sees any PSID of merit outside of pump relief. Promoting only the obscure and niche as the ONLY valid point is, like our formerly esteem Soopah-Boosah insisted on doing, is being disingenuous.
Racers are the rarity ...not the rule. The average stroke ..and EVEN the hi-per crowd never have to worry about this ..unless their entire lives are spent near the red line.
The filter will show a static
NOW IF YOU CAN (the vast majority CANNOT) actually produce some ungodly volume without hitting the pump relief level ..you MAY get the filter to be a player that's worth mentioning.
Sounds like you are changing the focus of this discussion. This discussion was about your claim that an oil filter is “extremely resistive to flow” (see your quote below), and the mis-information & confusion about the two sketches you showed. Did you read why I think your sketch #1 is bogus? In your sketch #1, you can not build up any significant oil pump pressure until the flow hits the engine, and therefore, the psid across the filter will be the same as it will be in sketch #2 since the gpm flow is the same in both scenarios.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Now if you're slamming up against the relief on the pump, then all filters are highly resistant to flow. That's why you have a bypass valve. That narrow range is just about all there is to talk about for most (note "most" - there are always exceptions ..terms ..and conditions)
But now you’re saying even in a racing engine with high oil flow the filter is less than 2 psid?
From what I’m reading in some of these old threads, it sounds like the filter psid can be as high as 5 to 8 psi on a high volume oil pumped engine (Subarus ?). Yeah, that is a lot less than what the engine causes, but it could be significant to the filter depending on its bypass setting.
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Quote:
I can’t follow your logic.
That's clear ..even with others seeing it clearly. (soopah-boosah)
You just don't want to. That's fine.
Have a nice day!!
I can’t follow your logic.
That's clear ..even with others seeing it clearly. (soopah-boosah)
You just don't want to. That's fine.
Have a nice day!!
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
I can’t follow your logic.
That's clear ..even with others seeing it clearly. (soopah-boosah)
You just don't want to. That's fine.
Have a nice day!!
I highly doubt anyone else can see your logic "clearly" ... because some of it doesn't make sense, and you obviously will not even try to listen why. Oh well ...
All I ask is for you to try and "clearly" explain why you think there is such a huge PSID on the filter in the first sketch and not in the second sketch.
Quote:
I can’t follow your logic.
That's clear ..even with others seeing it clearly. (soopah-boosah)
You just don't want to. That's fine.
Have a nice day!!
I highly doubt anyone else can see your logic "clearly" ... because some of it doesn't make sense, and you obviously will not even try to listen why. Oh well ...
All I ask is for you to try and "clearly" explain why you think there is such a huge PSID on the filter in the first sketch and not in the second sketch.
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- 39,793
Alright, you sucked me into one last round Soopah-Boosah (Jabba speak)
A filter just is a tremendous restriction compared to an empty pipe ..how hard is that to see? Not hard at all.
Try pouring or pumping oil ..at any temp ..etc. ..through a filter instead of just an empty pipe. Are you saying that they're equal? That a sheet of porous paper is capable of passing fluid as though it's not there?
Of course you're not. Only a flaming fool would believe such nonsense unless he was profoundly disturbed and off his meds.
I think we can agree there, right?
If you've got anything other than a YES or NO answer before your predicted dissertation, we're done.
A filter just is a tremendous restriction compared to an empty pipe ..how hard is that to see? Not hard at all.
Try pouring or pumping oil ..at any temp ..etc. ..through a filter instead of just an empty pipe. Are you saying that they're equal? That a sheet of porous paper is capable of passing fluid as though it's not there?
Of course you're not. Only a flaming fool would believe such nonsense unless he was profoundly disturbed and off his meds.
I think we can agree there, right?
If you've got anything other than a YES or NO answer before your predicted dissertation, we're done.
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