Will post if I find something, but not the kind of data I see often.
Hexagonal Boron Nitride (hBN) slowly replacing ZDDP?
- Thread starter BigTimeTA
- Start date
Appears the post owner was correct about the market tendency of shifting towards Boron instead of ZDDP. Not a global tendency though, but I can see some premium oils follow that trend.
True for example, HPL euro and Shell HU C2/C3 and Redline HP, with over 500 ppm of Boron.
But why would HPL and Shell go for full Boron instead of a balance between Moly and Boron? Is it because Boron is not affected by moisture unlike Moly?
Reference: https://oilyman.opentika.ovh/?auto=...engine=&mileage=0&ocons=0&country=ES&surname=
True for example, HPL euro and Shell HU C2/C3 and Redline HP, with over 500 ppm of Boron.
But why would HPL and Shell go for full Boron instead of a balance between Moly and Boron? Is it because Boron is not affected by moisture unlike Moly?
Reference: https://oilyman.opentika.ovh/?auto=...engine=&mileage=0&ocons=0&country=ES&surname=
I coat bullets with it.
The Boron found in a VOA might be Potassium Borate.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
It all depends on the additive package. HPL uses approved additive packages that they then test/top-treat/test...etc. to arrive at the final product. The Euro 5W-30 is a C3 oil and appears to use a mixed Ca/Mg detergent package and no real moly, so it would make sense that they wouldn't add moly to it and instead lean on boron. This is the opposite of their A3/B4 products where boron is like 50ppm and there's a ton of moly.
Flawed engine design or metallurgy. BMW S54, S65, S85 all revs 8000+ RPM and have no cam wear issues on 900 ppm A3/B4. The low SAPS versions of those specs have the exact same cam wear limits in the tests.
These are SN era euro formulas using the same additive package. They came with 500ppm boron and 1700 calcium with no magnesium. The difference between these is HPL boosts magnesium, redline adds moly and boosts ZDDP. Redline has been reformulated for API SP and no longer contains 500ppm boron
Yope exactly that for the A3/B3 version for Redline
Lots of moly and some boron.
https://oilyman.opentika.ovh/?auto=...engine=&mileage=0&ocons=0&country=ES&surname=
Yet they did not back off in terms of zddp. Thel redlines are nuts.
Maybe.
I was told Potassium borate is used as a catalytic intermediate to synthetize hBn.
Is there any hint to distinguish between the two?
Turbo engines might require slightly more zddp than the NA engines especially if the OCI is extended but I do second you on that.
Looking at multiple past UOAs, almost the exact same wear (camshaft, bearings, pistons...) between low vs high saps oils.
That ravenol REP which is qualified as a racing oil is low saps and has one of the lowest zink ppm:
https://oilyman.opentika.ovh/?auto=...engine=&mileage=0&ocons=0&country=ES&surname=
PS: little sigh for that 214ppm of tungsten
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
It's the P that's the AW additive, not the Zn.Turbo engines might require slightly more zddp than the NA engines especially if the OCI is extended but I do second you on that.
Looking at multiple past UOAs, almost the exact same wear (camshaft, bearings, pistons...) between low vs high saps oils.
That ravenol REP which is qualified as a racing oil is low saps and has one of the lowest zink ppm:
https://oilyman.opentika.ovh/?auto=...engine=&mileage=0&ocons=0&country=ES&surname=
PS: little sigh for that 214ppm of tungsten
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hBN is replacing moly in the long range shooting sports.
Right. Referring to ZDDP (Zinc, Phosphorus, Sulfur).
I know not long ago that the maximum allowed level of ZDDP (expressed as phosphorus indeed) in SN/GF-5 category car engine oil is around 800 ppm is. Due to it (Phosphorus) being the main poisonous component ( Way more than sulfur) for the catalytic converter.
And Zinc the stabilizer component which delivers the Phosphate to the metal surface, also Anti-oxidant.
Penrite oil company has the following claim:
Boron offers much greater protection than even Zinc by increasing the load carrying capacity of the oil by as much as 8 times in a 4 ball load test. It also showed a 12.5% decrease in scarring over a normal engine oil with a standard anti-wear additive pack and better than 50% less scarring than a base oil only 4 ball wear test. Apart from its increased protection, boron does not increase emission levels and is safe for catalysts.
In your opinion, do you think
- Boron/Borate
- Ashless Phosphorus compounds
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
The 4-ball load test is predominantly used for EP testing (though there is a motor oil screening test that can be run). I expect that, like with moly, there may be some synergies between boron and ZDDP. ZDDP is a compound with a complex and not fully understood relationship with surfaces. I've gotten into this in previous threads. As I think it was Molakule that said, if there was a drop-in replacement for ZDDP, oil companies would be all over it, but there isn't, so we continue to use it.
Well it has been almost 4 years since the original post, so if you give anything enough time it'll become true.
Clearer now. Thanks
Flawed logic, you have no idea what you're talking about and clearly did zero research on the topic.
- BMW S54 is a prime example of an engine that requires extremely specific, rare oil: 10W-60. Try running off-the shelf API 5W-30 (~700 PPM Zn/P) in it and see what happens at sustained 8000+ RPM.
- You argue with 900 PPM A3/B4. That would in fact be borderline acceptable. My issue is with API 5W-30 SM, SN, SP, SQ which became unacceptably low on Zn/P for my application. Toyota originally specified 5W-30 SL which was not great but high ZDDP SL oils did exist. Toyota should've issued a TSB advising against using 5W-30 API when they switched to "energy-conserving."
