HELP! Accidently mixed P/S fluid with Brake fluid

[Bugzii]

Hi everyone,

I was referred to this forum by a friend. He said that folks here are steep in oil/fluid knowledge. I hope you can help me....

Last weekend I accidently poured Power Steering fluid into the Brake fluid reservoir as I was flushing the brake system. The containers are of similar shapes and colors. But still I can't believe I made a mistake like that after 20 years of working on my cars. Arrgghh!!!

Anyway, the car is a '01 VW New Beetle equipped with ABS. The brake fluids used are Ate Super Blue and Valvoline Synthetic (DOT 4) and the P/S fluid is Pentosin CHF-11S. By the time I realized I had the wrong bottle, I was bleeding the second cylinder in the rear. I popped open the Ate brake fluid bottle and re-started flushing in the rear cylinders. Since the Ate fluid is blue, I could tell when new fluid was coming through. I finished all 4 cylinders with Ate Super Blue, which was followed by a 2nd round of flushing. This time I used Valvoline Synthetic, which has no color. Again, the change in fluid color indicated new fluid. The total amount of brake fluid used to flush out the P/S fluid was 2.25 liters. I took a long test drive and did a few emergency braking tests without any problems. (Knock on wood really hard!) I've already ordered a few more liters of Ate brake fluid for more flushing.

BTW, Pentosin CHF-11S is a hydraulic oil, not the same as ATF that is used in most American cars. It's OEM P/S fluid for most German cars. I mixed the Pentosin P/S fluid and Valvoline brake fluid in a glass jar to see if they are soluble. They're not! I was hoping they would because it'd make cleaning the system easier. Brake fluid is at the bottom and Pentosin is floating at the top.

My questions are:

1. Is there any way to completely flush out the Pentosin P/S fluid from the brake lines and ABS unit?

2. Is there an additive I can use to flush out the P/S fluid?

3. If No to #2, am I facing brake system & ABS damage in the near future?

4. If Yes to #3, how will braking performance change before total failure?

Thanks in advance...
Bugzii

 

[Ray H]

CALL YOUR DEALER'S SERVICE DEPARTMENT, EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED, AND ASK THEIR OPINION! They're in a position to know. Mineral oil of any type is not brake system rubber component friendly. At the very least you need to reflush completely, but it may already be too late for that. You may actually be in for a complete rebuild and seal replacement to get things right. The last thing you need with your braking system is to have soft or no brakes due to seal failure.

ABS? Ouch!!! That's likely to cost you big time. There's no way to predict when total failure will occur. But I wouldn't DRIVE that vehicle anywhere until it's tended to. And, if that means having it towed to your dealer,...

[ October 14, 2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[Bugzii]

How do you mean by "complete reflush"? I use the Motive bleeder and alternate colored brake fluids so I could tell when a new batch came through. Brake fluid goes in through the master cylinder and comes out at each wheel cylinder. Complete change of color means new batch of fluid.

I've reflushed the system twice already that same day. And I'm planning to do more flushing next weekend. The ABS unit tests itself everytime the ignition is in the ON position, so hopefully the warning light goes on, if it should fail.

I will call the service department and see what they say.

 

[dkcase]

I don't think you have any more concern, with the way you've flushed it out.

You might get a wheel cylinder rebuild kit (is it rear drums ? ) or a caliper rebuild kit and soak one of the seals in the P/S fluid. If it doesn't eat it up or swell it up, I wouldn't give it another thought.

I think you have flushed all the wrong stuff out.

Just my opinion. It's what I'd do.

 

[labman]

Maybe you found and fixed the problem soon enough. PS fluid ruins brakes fast, fast, fast. If the brakes are still working, sit down and have a stiff drink. If not, have 2. I love ABS, but it does complicate things. Maybe when you come home Friday, brake hard enough to see if it still works. That will give you all weekend to work on it if not.

 

[RavenTai]

a buddy of mine had 90 wt gear oil and brake fluid in the same black 1 gallon containers both sold by the same company and had similar labels, you know the rest

because it was so much thicker than brake fluid he noticed his mistake pretty quickly and only get a few ounces we flushed it through similar to what you have done and he had no problems afterward


this was a mid 90's non-ABS Toyota truck, the only problem that abs makes is that there is trapped fluid in the abs unit, look at the abs unit see if it has a bleed screw, if the P/S fluid got in there you need to get it out but the areas that the PS fluid got into are the same areas that you flushed by bleeding so it should be ok

on my Chevy truck you can use the dealers hand held scanner (tech II) to open the abs valves ( required if air gets in the abs unit)

you may want to look at a VW manual and see what the procedure is for getting air aout of the abs unit and do that

keep am eye on your brake fluid level for a wile if the PS fluid does damage the seals it will leak, it can also leak internally in the master cylinder that will be felt as a pedal that creeps down wile you hold the brake

 

[Bugzii]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dkcase:
[QB]You might get a wheel cylinder rebuild kit (is it rear drums ?) or a caliper rebuild kit and soak one of the seals in the P/S fluid. If it doesn't eat it up or swell it up, I wouldn't give it another thought.

---

This is a good idea for a test!

Thanks!

 

[Bugzii]

RavenTai -

I felt really stupid once I realized the wrong fluid was in there... like someone vacuum-sucked my brain out. But I feel better now after having read your post and a couple others who had made the same mistake but had no problems after a thorough flushing of the brake system.

More than anything, I was concerned about the ABS unit and Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD) which regulates the front-to-rear brake distribution.

BTW, My Bentley service manual has no provision for ABS bleeding. It simply says to follow the instrucions provided in the brake section, which has 1. the traditional 2 person method, 2. the power bleeding method. So the ABS is bled simultaneously with the brake system. I'll double check with a VW mech tomorrow.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[DPMiller]

Pentosin is a synthetic, and totally different to ATF- try posting on one of the VW boardsand you'll find out all about what happens if you mix the two...

I'd check on
tdiclub
usually some good specialist knowledge on there.

[ October 15, 2003, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]

 

[Pablo]

Now that it's been a day or so, I would flush it one more time.

Then, I'll bet you'll be fine.

 

[sciroccoGTX16V]

take the car to a mechanic ( avoid the dealer ) who has a VAG computer. have him flush the entire system including the ABS pump with some Castrol LMA brake fluid and then fill it with Pentosyn or ATE brake fluid.
You probably have gotten rid of the PS fluid but using the VAG tool will enable you to bleed the ABS pump and get rid of any PS fluid left there.
BTw, i don't know exactly how the VW ABS system works but I would presume if you flushed the PS fluid out without cycling the ignition on/off, no wrong fluid should have entered the ABS pump. Ask a knowledgable VW tech about this. Isn't the ABS pump on recall on the 01 Beetle ? My 01 Golf TDI had its pump replaced. Check with VW on that , you might be able to have all the above done for free

[ October 15, 2003, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: sciroccoGTX16V ]

 

[labman]

This thread, along with the one on the broken bleed screw, really confirms my idea of leaving the hydraulic system of the brakes alone until it is time to rebuild the calipers or cylinders. With the complication of ABS, perhaps more so. Most of your master cylinders have translucent reservoirs, so no need to even remove the cap. If you are really concerned about the fluid picking up moisture, you could replace the fluid in the master cylinder before working on the system. Just don't drain it dry and let air down into the ABS. When you do rebuild, clean up the bleed screws good and generously coat with silicone grease. Maybe sparingly with antisieze, but you should have the silicone out for the rest of the job and may as well use it on the bled screws too. Once finished, leave the bleed screws alone until the next rebuild. Routine flushing the system is more likely to cause problems than prevent them.

 

[Kestas]

I did something similar. I introduced mineral spirits, thinking it was brake fluid. But I left the stuff in there and didn't realize I had a problem until the next day after driving 15 miles when my brakes started locking up. The seals swelled.

I second dkcase's answer. You probably flushed out the bad fluid in time. I like his idea of testing a similar seal for swelling in the suspect fluid.

 

[Bugzii]

Pablo - I was thinking the same thing. It's enough time that the pentosin should be floating at the top, easier to be purged. Thanks!

sciroccoGTX16V - Good to see a fellow V-Dubber here!

The car has been driven the last 3 days, so if turning the ignition/engine on-off really cycles the ABS pump, then it's done a dozen times already. But it was never cycled while the P/S was in there. The Bentley manual states that the vag-com tool is needed to bleed ABS if...

"the hydraulic control unit was replaced, or have had one chamber of the unit drained of fluid".

I don't think this condition applies to my situation. Some say the ABS pump can be bled manually by locking up the wheels during a test-drive, thus activating the ABS. I believe this is how many independent shops do it since no one shop has factory scan-tools for every make & model. Anyway, I've already tested the ABS manually and it performed as it should... the wheels locked-up, ABS kicked in and the pedal pulsated until the car came to a nice even stop.

Recall: According to my dealer, the ABS recall does not apply to my NB. But I will double-check with VWoA Customer Service. We know how the dealers are.

[ October 15, 2003, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Bugzii ]