Helicopter

[Exhaustgases]

Originally Posted by Astro14

High flight time doesn't always confer experience or competence.* Further, most helicopter pilots aren't practiced/experienced in IFR. So, I take the 8,000 logged flight hours of the pilot on this flight with a huge grain of salt - it means he's been flying for a while - but doesn't mean that he's good, or capable. And, as stated, he was under pressure to fly in marginal conditions. Many pilots make lousy decisions (to fly in weather that they can't handle, for example, or exceed a limit, or break a rule) with zero consequences. They then get used to that poor decision as normal, never realizing that their risk is high every time they do it. It's known as the "normalization of deviance" and the classic example is the Space Shuttle o-rings. Flight after flight, the o-rings burned through - a huge problem, but since the shuttle didn't blow up, they didn't fix the o-rings and kept flying. Then, the Challenger blew up. And all along, the lowly engineers who said flying with this problem was wrong, were ignored by those in authority who were pressured to make poor decisions. So, scud run a few times without crashing, and eventually, scud running becomes "normal" - even though it's a terrible idea and reflects poor judgment. But it's become "normal" so you do it, just like flying with o-rings that burn through. And it's all good - right up until disaster strikes. It's a case of "doing wrong feels so right" because it worked out a few times, and you got away with it, so it must be OK, it must be normal, it must be safe and you feel like you're good at making decisions because everything worked out OK. *ref: Socrates and his position on the unexamined life - many pilots never take the time to evaluate their performance, never improve, never have the desire to improve. I've seen very high-time pilots (30,000+ hours) who have simply become so complacent that they have no idea how inept they've become. Their simulator performance warranted additional training and evaluation. Some of those evaluations resulted in additional training and revelation to the pilot, while some of those resulted in permanent retirement from flying.

I like this post. I wish time and x hours of experience wasn't applied to aquire the "Knowledge based" A&P ratings, just like you mentioned high time incompentent pilots the same is with some A&P people. And I did take it a bit off topic here.

 

[antonmnster]

As someone who only has a couple hours flight time in a 172, this is a good thread.

 

[adams355]

This piece has some informative info, one other young girl died as well. Complete tragedy. https://coupler.foxsports.com.au/ap...s-story/bd22cd7b35eada0f118d29ef54be3ba6

 

[P10crew]

Super rich and a bad idea. Another classic case where the individuals over abundance of cash killed a bunch of people. No mention of the service men that died just hours apart?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by P10crew

Super rich and a bad idea. Another classic case where the individuals over abundance of cash killed a bunch of people. No mention of the service men that died just hours apart?

Yes, people have abundance of cash and they immediately start killing people.

 

[ragtoplvr]

Used to be the artificial horizons only had a limited range of operation. If you exceeded that they just sat against the stop while you crashed.. It only took a few seconds to exceed the limit if you were disoriented. Maybe the newer ones are better. Helicopters are more limited in what they can recover from than a plane. If he exceeded the limit due to disorientation, it is over, no recovery possible. We will never know exactly what happened, I am expecting pilot error as that is the most likely.

 

[MolaKule]

Here is a post I received from the AOPA: https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...h?utm_source=epilot&utm_medium=email

 

[Astro14]

Additionally, the company operating the helicopter was not authorized to conduct IFR operations. This causes a couple of concerns: first, that company had no requirement to conduct training or to maintain IFR currency on their pilots. Further, the pilot may have felt pressure to avoid filing IFR, or even asking for an IFR clearance, knowing the company wasn't authorized to operate IFR.

 

[SatinSilver]

I've always been a fan of the MD helos. Here's a new version of one that was at a show in Anaheim, CA. https://defence-blog.com/news/md-he...-little-bird-with-hellfire-missiles.html Here's a write-up of the helo that crashed. Formerly owned by the state of Illinois, sold at auction for $515k and made in 1991. I thought aircraft like this required two pilots. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/27/us/kobe-bryant-sikorsky-helicopter.html

 

[Exhaustgases]

It looks like IR EVS and artificial vision should be mandatory for all for hire passenger helicopters. Both the systems side by side will give a full view of the ground through the fog or clouds, and if it was disorientation that caused the 2 latest helicopter crashes, this would have prevented a problem. I don't know if it exists but all aircraft need proximity to other aircraft warning systems based on transponder signals, and like the old DF steer or guidance systems at airports those transponder signals could show position as well. If this doesn't exist I should get something for the idea. That would have prevented the 2 site seeing planes in Alaska from colliding. And with IFR the pilot would have awareness of his or her traffic.

 

[Surestick]

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases

Fog is no excuse for a crash nowadays. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGEagkcsXg Agree with the above post, more to the story.

Fog doesn't cause crashes, VFR into IMC, poor flight planning, poor pilot decision making, and other similar factors cause crashes in fog.

 

[Exhaustgases]

With the correct systems an idiot could fly through fog.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases

With the correct systems an idiot could fly through fog.

That's like saying, "with the right tools, an idiot could perform heart surgery". It just isn't the case. Cool displays and good systems don't confer competency, judgement or skill.

 

[mbacfp]

I will say that my office use to be 3 miles west of where the accident occurred. Randomly the fog can be quite low and thick in those areas. I can only assume the pilot didn't anticipate how bad it was and attempted to climb out of it then somehow got disoriented and entered the fatal decent? I've flown fixed wing aircraft throughout the area. Van Nuys to Camarillo, etc. No where near that experienced as many on here, but got to leave yourself a way out. Very sad nonetheless. Great thread with great insights as usual. Be safe all.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases

With the correct systems an idiot could fly through fog.

Same day two Croatian pilots died in OH-58 Kiowa. Poor visibility, Zadar-Split route over Adriatic. Brand new helicopter with all bells and whistles, Major with almost 3,000 hours in all sorts of conditions (anythign you can think of), and Captain with some 2,000 hours in all sorts of conditions.

 

[Exhaustgases]

Originally Posted by Astro14

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases

With the correct systems an idiot could fly through fog.

That's like saying, "with the right tools, an idiot could perform heart surgery". It just isn't the case. Cool displays and good systems don't confer competency, judgement or skill.

With the correct tools an idiot could perform heart surgery. The tool would be an AI robotic device. And those tools are not too far off in the future. The key to any task is 2 items. 1 Information other wise known as a good set of instructions. 2 The correct tools to accomplish the task. With those 2 items anything can be accomplished.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases

Originally Posted by Astro14

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases

With the correct systems an idiot could fly through fog.

That's like saying, "with the right tools, an idiot could perform heart surgery". It just isn't the case. Cool displays and good systems don't confer competency, judgement or skill.

With the correct tools an idiot could perform heart surgery. The tool would be an AI robotic device. And those tools are not too far off in the future. The key to any task is 2 items. 1 Information other wise known as a good set of instructions. 2 The correct tools to accomplish the task. With those 2 items anything can be accomplished.

I vote this for post of the year.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases

With the correct tools an idiot could perform heart surgery. The tool would be an AI robotic device. And those tools are not too far off in the future. The key to any task is 2 items. 1 Information other wise known as a good set of instructions. 2 The correct tools to accomplish the task. With those 2 items anything can be accomplished.

 

[CT8]

Because of work I have been able to sit in both seats of a 747 on many occasions as well as steering a Cessna 152 several times! Along with the You Tube videos I have watched, I am applying for a Pilot job an UAL next Monday. the Boeing 777 would seem the place to start.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by CT8

Because of work I have been able to sit in both seats of a 747 on many occasions as well as steering a Cessna 152 several times! Along with the You Tube videos I have watched, I am applying for a Pilot job an UAL next Monday. the Boeing 777 would seem the place to start.

Recall the tarmac worker guy who stole the Horizon turboprop plane from Sea-Tac ... he took off and was doing inside loops, etc all from just learning on a fight simulator.