GX460/A760F help me decide on WS ATF Replacement.

[thescreensavers]

At my next Engine OCI I am planning to drop the pan on my transmission and do a full fluid exchange. Trans Capacity is a hair under 12, So looking at 4x 1Gal Bottles to ensure 100% exchange and top off. I plan to do 30k Spill and fills moving forward.

The A760F is known for valve body/Solenoid issues so protecting the valve body is my #1 priority. (Running Magnefine + Hayden 678, ~160-180F Operating temps)

It has been mentioned here that HPL and Valvoline Fluid are using the latest Infineum's MV ATF additive package that was developed for M1 LV ATF.

I am leaning to the Valvoline fluid as its price and local availability is attractive, but wanted to get some opinions.

• Valvoline Extended Protection ATF - $125 (-20$ Rebate inc) (Available Locally)
• HPL Green ATF - $234
• Amsoil SS Fuel Efficient ATF (ATL) $243

Just for Ref,

	Toyota WS/M1 3324/M1 WS​	M1 LV HP	HPL GREEN	Valvoline EP	Amsoil SS ATL
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100 C, mm2/s, ASTM D445	5.3	5.7	6.368	5.9	6.3
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40 C, mm2/s, ASTM D445	23	27	33.11	28	30.8
Viscosity Index, ASTM D2270	173	152	147	163	159
Flash Point, Cleveland Open Cup, °C, ASTM D92	184	233	208	201-249 (SDS)	224

 

[JavierH19]

The EP atf is really good and I've recommended it many times. I'd use it in newer 8 and 9 speeds but for older 6 speeds i'd try to use something a bit thicker. I don't really care for the cheper red atf/cvt maxlife one.

There are also two WS viscosities the thin cafe spec American one and the thicker non American one and it seems the thinner one is known for causing issues as that trans is used elsewhere but isn't known for having those issues. The aisin stuff is a bit thicker at 7.3 and i think castrol transmax atf/cvt is 7 cst and is known to work well with WS and if i had to choose bewteen maxlife and transmax I'd take transmax.

Look over the whole thread as there's tons of good info but look at toyotacarnage posts in particular. You could use something other than WS like he did and he had no issues.

J

Thread 'So... Toyota WS and Aisin WS are not the same.'

Jul 31, 2020

Hey all! I recently did three drain/fills on my 09 Vibe (Matrix) with Aisin WS. I figured, Aisin made the transmission, it's spec'd for WS fluid, can't go wrong. It seems to be shifting and working well as far as I can tell. (better than with the cloudy gray/purple mystery fluid that was in there) Just out of curiosity, I dug into the details of Aisin WS, Toyota WS, and a few alternatives just to see if one was maybe better than the others. Turns out Aisin WS and Toyota WS are very different! The most glaring difference is viscosity. Aisin: 34.88 cst @40C / 7.332 cst @100C Toyota: 23cst...

• Jonas
• Replies: 38
• Forum: ATF, Differential, Trans, Brakes, P/S

• 

 

[thescreensavers]

The EP atf is really good and I've recommended it many times. I don't really care for the cheper red atf/cvt maxlife one.

There are also two WS viscosities the thin cafe spec American one and the thicker non American one and it seems the thinner one is known for causing issues as that trans is used elsewhere but isn't known for having those issues. The aisin stuff is a bit thicker at 7.3 and i think castrol transmax atf/cvt is 7 cst and is known to work well with WS and if i had to choose bewteen maxlife and transmax I'd take transmax.

This is a good thread but look at post 17 in particular. You could use something other than WS like he did and he had no issues.

J

Thread 'So... Toyota WS and Aisin WS are not the same.'

Jul 31, 2020

Hey all! I recently did three drain/fills on my 09 Vibe (Matrix) with Aisin WS. I figured, Aisin made the transmission, it's spec'd for WS fluid, can't go wrong. It seems to be shifting and working well as far as I can tell. (better than with the cloudy gray/purple mystery fluid that was in there) Just out of curiosity, I dug into the details of Aisin WS, Toyota WS, and a few alternatives just to see if one was maybe better than the others. Turns out Aisin WS and Toyota WS are very different! The most glaring difference is viscosity. Aisin: 34.88 cst @40C / 7.332 cst @100C Toyota: 23cst...

• Jonas
• Replies: 38
• Forum: ATF, Differential, Trans, Brakes, P/S

• 

thanks for posting that, ive read that before as well and just some conjecture. WS was developed specifically for loss reduction (fuel efficiency) looks like early on in development they had issues, so it could be Aisin's own fluid has durability in mind, they are cited as an author. From 2004-01-0650

Development of lower viscosity ATF in the practical temperature range has been difficult because such problems as abrasion and seizure arise
from possible oil film breaks on parts surfaces at high temperatures. We have improved the base oil for the ATF and developed an improved viscosity index
material to realize low-viscosity ATF that can solve the abrasion and seizure problem. Figure 6 compares the viscosity characteristics between low-viscosity ATF and conventional ATF. Because of quicker oil return at low temperatures, a margin is provided in air suction through the oil strainer, allowing reduced ATF volume. Additionally, the use of an ATF warmer has accelerated oil warming for loss reduction.

Looking up ATF-0WS, Aisin must have updated their fluid since that posting since its more inline with the above fluids.

5.8 @100C
27.93 @40C
158 Viscosity Index
224C Flash Point

 

[Hohn]

I went with Idemitsu full Syn for my GX460. It seems to shift very smoothly. Since I have a couple gallons of the stuff now, I won’t be trying another fluid soon, as only my GX calls for a WS-spec fluid.

I’m using blue bottle Valvoline import ATF in my odyssey. And my Accord I haven’t touched the trans fluid yet, although it calls for Honda Type Two. I’ve not yet done the research to know what ATF upgrades might exist for that Honda 10sp trans.

Keeping the GX transmission alive is a big imperative for me.

 

[JavierH19]

thanks for posting that, ive read that before as well and just some conjecture. WS was developed specifically for loss reduction (fuel efficiency) looks like early on in development they had issues, so it could be Aisin's own fluid has durability in mind, they are cited as an author. From 2004-01-0650



Looking up ATF-0WS, Aisin must have updated their fluid since that posting since its now,

27.93 @40C
5.8 @100C
158 Viscosity Index
224C Flash Point

Yeah before WS toyota used both dexron 3 and conventional T-IV which I assume is the conventional that image is referring to. Those older fluids were known to shear and Allison caught on real quick and made tes 295 and then a further upgraded version called 668 ATF but then GM came out with dexron 6 and it was a big leap in fluid quality compared to the prior dex 3. I'm trying to remember the name of the thread where this was discussed but I can't but maybe I'll remember later on and I'll post it.

 

[JavierH19]

I went with Idemitsu full Syn for my GX460. It seems to shift very smoothly. Since I have a couple gallons of the stuff now, I won’t be trying another fluid soon, as only my GX calls for a WS-spec fluid.

I’m using blue bottle Valvoline import ATF in my odyssey. And my Accord I haven’t touched the trans fluid yet, although it calls for Honda Type Two. I’ve not yet done the research to know what ATF upgrades might exist for that Honda 10sp trans.

Keeping the GX transmission alive is a big imperative for me.

Which Idemitsu the TLS or TLS LV.

I remember reading on a toyota forum about someone using the older non LV TLS and it fixed the shifts in his 6 speed since it was thicker. The LV is thin at 5.3 but the non LV TLS is 7.3 which is inline with the Aisin WS which from what I've read have the same additive pack but is just thinner for FE reasons but the thicker aisin and idemitsu stuff works fine in these.

 

[Patrick0525]

At my next Engine OCI I am planning to drop the pan on my transmission and do a full fluid exchange. Trans Capacity is a hair under 12, So looking at 4x 1Gal Bottles to ensure 100% exchange and top off. I plan to do 30k Spill and fills moving forward.

The A760F is known for valve body/Solenoid issues so protecting the valve body is my #1 priority. (Running Magnefine + Hayden 678, ~160-180F Operating temps)

It has been mentioned here that HPL and Valvoline Fluid are using the latest Infineum's MV ATF additive package that was developed for M1 LV ATF.

I am leaning to the Valvoline fluid as its price and local availability is attractive, but wanted to get some opinions.

• Valvoline Extended Protection ATF - $125 (-20$ Rebate inc) (Available Locally)
• HPL Green ATF - $234
• Amsoil SS Fuel Efficient ATF (ATL) $243

Just for Ref,

	Toyota WS/M1 3324/M1 WS​	M1 LV HP	HPL GREEN	Valvoline EP	Amsoil SS ATL
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100 C, mm2/s, ASTM D445	5.3	5.7	6.368	5.9	6.3
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40 C, mm2/s, ASTM D445	23	27	33.11	28	30.8
Viscosity Index, ASTM D2270	173	152	147	163	159
Flash Point, Cleveland Open Cup, °C, ASTM D92	184	233	208	201-249 (SDS)	224

Or wait until July 4, last year HPL had their 25% promo code. I did a spill & fill on the 21 Lexus RX350 using Green CC but it only had 17k miles.

 

[Toy4x4]

Different trans, but I used Amsoil in the 4Runner. It's been in about 8 years now with no issues.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I've used Toyota WS and the Idemitsu equivalent with good results. You used to get a good price in the Idemitsu gallon jug, but perhaps those days are gone.

2 gallons should be enough for a pan drop; more if you do a fluid exchange. Good luck!

 

[Hohn]

Which Idemitsu the TLS or TLS LV.

I remember reading on a toyota forum about someone using the older non LV TLS and it fixed the shifts in his 6 speed since it was thicker. The LV is thin at 5.3 but the non LV TLS is 7.3 which is inline with the Aisin WS which from what I've read have the same additive pack but is just thinner for FE reasons but the thicker aisin and idemitsu stuff works fine in these.

I have the TLS LV. I think that matched the WS specs I could find at the time I was researching.

Since I don’t tow and my trans temps run reasonably cool, I’ll see no disadvantage to the LV variant. I have a CSF radiator installed and while the internal trans cooler isn’t very significant, the overall effect of installing that radiator is that everything runs cooler. It’s quite a cooling capacity upgrade overall. The factory Denso is barely over an inch thick. This CSF is not only thicker, it’s 100% aluminum and even the end tanks are shedding heat (unlike the plastic end tanks of the OEM unit which don’t conduct heat well).

CSF radiator:

OEM Denso:

 

[Hohn]

I've used Toyota WS and the Idemitsu equivalent with good results. You used to get a good price in the Idemitsu gallon jug, but perhaps those days are gone.

2 gallons should be enough for a pan drop; more if you do a fluid exchange. Good luck!

A spill and fill on my GX gets out about 3.5 quarts. I don’t see how a pan drop on the GX would get more fluid out since the drain plug is right on the bottom surface. I assume the majority of the fluid is retained in the torque converter and front pump, plus the cooler plumbing runs.

I just assume these days that you can’t really change the fluid, you can sort of just dilute the contaminants with fresh fluid. As an environmental engineer buddy once shared with me “the solution to pollution is dilution.”

I don’t sweat trying to get out every drop, I’m happy to take whatever comes from the drain and replace it. It just means I need to do it a bit more often because of the inefficiency of the drain.

 

[JavierH19]

I have the TLS LV. I think that matched the WS specs I could find at the time I was researching.

Since I don’t tow and my trans temps run reasonably cool, I’ll see no disadvantage to the LV variant. I have a CSF radiator installed and while the internal trans cooler isn’t very significant, the overall effect of installing that radiator is that everything runs cooler. It’s quite a cooling capacity upgrade overall. The factory Denso is barely over an inch thick. This CSF is not only thicker, it’s 100% aluminum and even the end tanks are shedding heat (unlike the plastic end tanks of the OEM unit which don’t conduct heat well).

CSF radiator:
View attachment 278438


OEM Denso:

View attachment 278439

If you can keep the temps down and don't tow then the low viscosity is fine since it stays thick at low temps. It's why I'm ok with using the ulv in my escalade since the temps never go beyond 170 and it hovers around 150 sometimes 160. But it's apparently ok to use thicker like hpl green cc in the 10 speed from what's been discussed in other threads.

 

[Hohn]

If you can keep the temps down and don't tow then the low viscosity is fine since it stays thick at low temps. It's why I'm ok with using the ulv in my escalade since the temps never go beyond 170 and it hovers around 150 sometimes 160. But it's apparently ok to use thicker like hpl green cc in the 10 speed from what's been discussed in other threads.

The GM 10 speed I presume?

 

[thescreensavers]

I went with Idemitsu full Syn for my GX460. It seems to shift very smoothly. Since I have a couple gallons of the stuff now, I won’t be trying another fluid soon, as only my GX calls for a WS-spec fluid.

I’m using blue bottle Valvoline import ATF in my odyssey. And my Accord I haven’t touched the trans fluid yet, although it calls for Honda Type Two. I’ve not yet done the research to know what ATF upgrades might exist for that Honda 10sp trans.

Keeping the GX transmission alive is a big imperative for me.

I'm running a small experiment with the Magnefine for 1 OCI and did use the Idemitsu stuff, I can only get ~ 2.5 quarts from a drain and fill and after installing the Hayden and filter basically used up the gallon I got.

The updated Infineum additive package has me intrigued so want to use a fluid that has it.

 

[JavierH19]

The GM 10 speed I presume?

Yes. Some 10 speeds tend to roast though. I think it's the duramax equipped 1500's that are the worst as I believe they tend to run at 200-220 and sometimes 230 just normal driving which I couldn't imagine having.

 

[edyvw]

Idemitsu TLS LV has the exact same additive package as WS, except it has a different base stock consisting possibly of esters too:
https://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/28529-idemitsu-atf-type-tls-lv-svezhee/

 

[Hohn]

Idemitsu TLS LV has the exact same additive package as WS, except it has a different base stock consisting possibly of esters too:
https://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/28529-idemitsu-atf-type-tls-lv-svezhee/

Cool! Thanks for posting that.

I just went for a drive to check temperatures in my GX. Looks like after 30 min of country roads and running around town, it stabilizes at a trans temp max of about 200F. Coolant is running about 195F and the engine oil temp (there’s a PID for it, not sure where it’s measuring that) runs just between the two.

Ambient temps about 80F.

Trans temp is roughly tracking coolant temp within 5 degrees (as you’d expect with a trans that has coolant WARMING built into it) and a modest radiator-integral trans cooler.

I’ll have to wait for higher temps and/or higher loads to see what the temps show.

Personally, I’d be happy to run oil, coolant, and trans at 200F all day forever in this GX.

 

[thescreensavers]

Cool! Thanks for posting that.

I just went for a drive to check temperatures in my GX. Looks like after 30 min of country roads and running around town, it stabilizes at a trans temp max of about 200F. Coolant is running about 195F and the engine oil temp (there’s a PID for it, not sure where it’s measuring that) runs just between the two.

There are two sensors one for the pan temp and another for the torque converter. With the torque converter unlocked I've seen 40f spread between the pan temp and converter. So if your pan is ~200s the fluid in the converter unlocked will be a bit higher.

 

[edyvw]

Cool! Thanks for posting that.

I just went for a drive to check temperatures in my GX. Looks like after 30 min of country roads and running around town, it stabilizes at a trans temp max of about 200F. Coolant is running about 195F and the engine oil temp (there’s a PID for it, not sure where it’s measuring that) runs just between the two.

Ambient temps about 80F.

Trans temp is roughly tracking coolant temp within 5 degrees (as you’d expect with a trans that has coolant WARMING built into it) and a modest radiator-integral trans cooler.

I’ll have to wait for higher temps and/or higher loads to see what the temps show.

Personally, I’d be happy to run oil, coolant, and trans at 200F all day forever in this GX.

I don't have a radiator, so the fluid closely follows the coolant temperature, 200-215.

 

[Hohn]

There are two sensors one for the pan temp and another for the torque converter. With the torque converter unlocked I've seen 40f spread between the pan temp and converter. So if your pan is ~200s the fluid in the converter unlocked will be a bit higher.

yes, I see PIDs for trans temp 1 and trans temp 2. Just running around down and at 50mph county road speed, the converter locks and the temps are close.