Gumout Fuel Injector Cleaners

[hardcore302]

Gumout with Regane Fuel SYSTEM cleaners are top notch, as they have PEA (am I correct?). But are there any benefits to using the fuel injector cleaners they make? I found a bottle of concentrated FIC laying around so I threw it in. I was wondering if it would actually do anything. Thanks!

 

[sciphi]

There are benefits to Gumout, sure. Otherwise, there's no benefit to your car, or wallet.

Their Regane fuel system cleaners do work, as based on fuel economy numbers and running condition of the engine.

 

[Gene K]

It depends on the quality of fuel and the amount of detergent in the fuel you run. I like to run a bottle of Regane through every 10,000 miles and I usually see a small 2% or so increase in mpg afterwards but Im honest enough to admit it could be a subconscious change in the way I drive.

I dont run other kinds of cleaner so cant comment on them.

 

[TC]

Although I've used Regane in the past, my advice would be to steer folks away from Regane for one simple reason: Their current MSDSs no longer provide any useful information on what's in their product. So you may be buying 100% kerosene for all we know. The MSDSs for Regane Complete Cleaner (regular and 2X) either list no chemicals or list "Naphthalene
“I found a bottle of concentrated FIC laying around so I threw it in. I was wondering if it would actually do anything.” In my opinion pretty much ANY mainstream fuel “cleaner” solvent will have at least SOME cleaning effect, including lowly kerosene. So I’d say that, yes, it accomplished something, even if something very modest. But no harm done either – I’ve always believed these add-to-fuel-tank products follow the physician’s code for the most part if instructions are followed, as in “First, do no harm.” So even if they don’t accomplish much (and some of the better products ARE effective), at least with rare exception they won’t go Charlie Sheen on your engine or fuel system.

 

[Phishin]

TC,

Your logic makes no sense man.

If you check out Techron's MSDS sheets, it don't list squat either in regards to polyether amine solvent. It only lists: methyl-benzene, naphtha, stoddard solvents, and distillates. Where's the PEA's? LOL!! I guess it doesn't have any, right?

I would HIGHLY recommend Gumout Regane to anyone. It worked miracles on three of my engines. Find my thread in this section about it. This stuff is amazing.

 

[TC]

Why would you automatically assume a Techron product has PEA unless 1) The MSDS lists it, 2) Chevron claims so elsewhere on their website or in their literature, or 3) Someone has chemically analyzed the product and confirmed PEA? Otherwise you're just ASSUMING the stuff has PEA without any real proof of that. But why assume anything? Why not just buy a product that says "PEA" right there in black-and-white in the MSDS? Speaking of "logic," that's what I call a logical approach. Simply assuming a product has something in it is not logical in the least. I once read that PEA, a synthetic detergent, is supposedly more expensive than other common petro-solvents used as fuel “cleaners,” and therefore there’s a FINANCIAL INCENTIVE for manufacturers to eliminate PEA from their formulas, although I’m not suggesting there’s been any trend in that respect. But the incentive is nonetheless there, so the way I see it, the burden of proof is on the manufacturer to prove it’s in the mix, and not on me to “assume” anything. I've used Regane twice in the past with no detectable effect -- basically I might as well have added paint thinner instead and saved a few bucks. Others may have better results using Regane – my fuel injectors were probably pretty clean to begin with anyway.

 

[[RT] ProjUltraZ]

i've smelled Techron but Regane complete All in one is the fishiest thing i've ever smelled in auto products. Not that i know what pure PEA smells like, but... amines are supposed to smell like fish.

so unless they're adding something to mimic the fishy smell to disguise the fact they they've lowered PEA content - i assume it has super amounts of PEA in there

 

[TC]

I dropped a bottle of Valvoline Complete in a gas tank a month ago (20-30% PEA per the MSDS), and to me it smelled like....well, simply like an unidentifiable oil-based solvent, to be honest.

 

[Garak]

Does PEA even have to be listed on an MSDS in the first place? I have no idea how hazardous it is, but the rules (and the enforcement) tend to be pretty lax when it comes to a relatively safe ingredient, or if the ingredient's hazards are very similar to that of other, listed ingredients.

 

[TC]

"Does PEA even have to be listed on an MSDS in the first place?"
That's a darn good question, something I was looking into recently. Most MSDSs for fuel "cleaners" DO list PEA when it's present. MSDSs are required for any chemical sold to and used in workplaces. Actually, it's much broader than that -- if a manufacturer simply "produces" a potentially hazardous chemical, they must provide an MSDS for it (CFR 1910.1200(g)(1)). Any "hazardous" chemical must be listed. I'll simply copy-and-paste here ..."'Hazardous chemical' means any chemical which is a physical hazard or a health hazard. ’Physical hazard’ means a chemical for which there is scientifically valid evidence that it is a combustible liquid, a compressed gas, explosive, flammable, an organic peroxide, an oxidizer, pyrophoric, unstable (reactive) or water-reactive.” So, in short, if a chemical constituent is a combustible liquid (such as kerosene in a fuel cleaner), it must be listed. It it’s an irritant, list it. If it’s corrosive on the skin, list it. If it’s toxic (there’s a legal definition for that), list it. One might think, incorrectly, that “They can claim it’s a trade secret and not list it on an MSDS.” Not so. “The chemical manufacturer, importer, or employer may withhold the specific chemical identity, including the chemical name and other specific identification of a hazardous chemical, from the material safety data sheet, provided that…. The material safety data sheet indicates that the specific chemical identity is being withheld as a trade secret.” So even if they claim “trade secret,” they still have to list a chemical called “trade secret” on the MSDS, just as they would in listing “kerosene.” And they also have to list all the qualities of that trade secret chemical as well, such as flashpoint, toxicity, etc. http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10099

At the Huntsman website, which lists various fuel PAEs, a common theme is “corrosive to skin and eyes.” That would suggest to me that, YES, PEA must be listed in an MSDS. But then, I love Beavis & Butthead, so take all this with a huge grain o’ salt.
http://www.huntsman.com/performance_prod...cfm?PageID=1426

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: TC
"Does PEA even have to be listed on an MSDS in the first place?"
That's a darn good question, something I was looking into recently. Most MSDSs for fuel "cleaners" DO list PEA when it's present. MSDSs are required for any chemical sold to and used in workplaces. Actually, it's much broader than that -- if a manufacturer simply "produces" a potentially hazardous chemical, they must provide an MSDS for it (CFR 1910.1200(g)(1)).


That's why I'm not so sure. Not so long ago, I was a certified dangerous goods inspector up here. When one looks at motor oil, it really doesn't matter what group number and MSDS lists. All the oil base stocks have pretty much the same health risks and fire risks, and the same cleanup procedures. If PEA's risks and cleanup are the same as other listed ingredients in the product, it may not be an issue.

Then of course, there's the enforcement side of things. Even if PEA absolutely should be listed on an MSDS because of the legislation and regulations, that doesn't mean it will be if there's no enforcement. You transport LPG cylinders without the appropriate documentation and placarding, there's an obvious violation there for any inspector to deal with. If Regane (or its ilk) are listed as a fire hazard, inhalation hazard, corrosive to skin and eyes, and so forth, with kerosene or something like that as a primary ingredient, for instance, no inspector is going to look twice.

 

[[RT] ProjUltraZ]

Definition - A trade secret is any formula, pattern, device or compilation of information used in one's business, and gives him an opportunity to obtain an advantage over competitors who do not know or use it.
It may be a formula for a chemical compound, a process of manufacturing, treating or preserving materials, a pattern for a machine or other device, or even a list of customers.
In other words, the trade secret is proprietary information, that which the holder of the secret does not wish to be known to others, particularly his competitors.

In the context of an MSDS, a trade secret and "secrecy" have a very rigorous definition as defined by OSHA in Appendix D to the Hazard Communication Standard, 29 CFR 1910.1200.

Additional Info - When 29 CFR 1910.1200, the OSHA Hazard Communication Standard was being drafted, some manufacturers worried that the requirement to provide MSDS's would give away their "secret formulas" or proprietary information about their products.
Thus, Paragraph (i) of the Standard permits a manufacturer, importer or even employer to withhold the specific chemical identity of a material provided that all of the following apply:
-The claim of a "trade secret" can be supported (key point; more below).
-The MSDS states that the specific chemical identity is being withheld as a trade secret.
-The properties and effects of the hazardous chemical, including the PEL, TLV, or other designated exposure limit, is disclosed in the MSDS.
-The specific chemical identity is made immediately available to a treating physician or nurse in an emergency situation or to the physician, nurse, employee or designated representative under certain non-emergency situations; see Paragraph i(3) for detailed information.
http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/tradesecret.html

if someone could post the approp Regane MSDS

 

[TC]

Gumout MSDSs can be found here: http://www.itwgb.com/

The MSDSs for their premier "Complete" products (concentrated and unconcentrated versions) simply indicate "<1% Naphthalene" for one, and "Blend of petroleum distillates and additives" for the other, neither giving any useful info in that respect.

 

[Errtt]

Isn't the purpose of an MSDS is to convey things like health hazards, VOC's, fire hazards etc.? and not necessary all ingredients? Just certain ones for other useful purposes?

 

[[RT] ProjUltraZ]

perhaps they can get away with calling it an additive since the toxic flammable corrosive effects are similar to the rest of it

 

[[RT] ProjUltraZ]

i checked the Regane All in one MSDS and it listed two Fuel additives in the tox section with different properties. so there are two unspecified fuel additives not including the light petroleum distillate carrier

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Errtt
Isn't the purpose of an MSDS is to convey things like health hazards, VOC's, fire hazards etc.? and not necessary all ingredients? Just certain ones for other useful purposes?


Yep, that was my point. Gasoline and diesel certainly don't list all their ingredients. If an ingredient is not markedly different in hazard and cleanup from another ingredient, no one's going to give two hoots from an enforcement perspective. If I were inspecting someone who was hauling a properly placarded gasoline tanker, I wouldn't care if they had dumped a barrel of Stabil or Regane into it. It wouldn't affect firefighting, cleanup, or health risks.

 

[TC]

"Isn't the purpose of an MSDS is to convey things like health hazards, VOC's, fire hazards etc.? and not necessary all ingredients?"

Yes, that is correct. If it isn't hazardous in some way, there's no need to list it. Vinegar is simply a modest amount of acetic acid diluted in lot of water. An MSDS for vinegar (yes, they actually exist, for the laboratory blends) would just list the acetic acid. The water, whether it's 1% or 99% of the overall solution, wouldn't normally be listed.

 

[TC]

Here's the funny thing. Back in 2002, and I'm sure at other times as well, Gumout LISTED the polyether amines in their Regane MSDS. Now they don't. Go figure. Type "Regane 620" into Google. Said it once, I'll say it again, it might not be listed today because....drumroll, please....it ain't there. Don't know -- just sayin'. (I love that phrase "Just sayin'..." because you can say something like, "It's at least possible that Tom Hanks routinely eats newborn babies for breakfast. I'm just sayin'...")

By 2008, Regane didn't list PEA any longer, but did bother to list kerosene and petroleum distillates on their MSDS (Google "regane 600620LU"). Now their MSDSs don't say much of anything. And that leads me to surmise that Regane is now composed entirely of 100% pure, perfectly safe....yes, you guessed it....UNICORN TEARS!

 

[ahoier]

I stumbled upon the "older" looking "HM" Regane bottles at Big Lots yesterday, with UPC 0 71948 81060 0

and yea, this is what I found.....according to the WM MSDS index:

HYDROCARBON SOLVENTS MIXTURE 30 - 55% Yes
ADDITIVE PACKAGE MIXTURE 20 - 45% Yes
HEAVY AROMATIC SOLVENT NAPHTHA 64742-94-5 1 - 5% Yes
NAPHTHALENE 91-20-3 0.2% Yes

Kind of boring looking

Key: Yes = Hazardous in Blend

% range is the concentration of this 12 FL. OZ. bottle.....