GTL base stocks better than PAO/POE?

Pennzoil motor oil
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JohnnyJohnson said:
So just how many 100's of thousands of documented miles engine life is it giving its users?
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I did not say that it will have any impact for an average user, or that everyone should buy PAO based oils. If its purely hypothetical question, which base is better (regardless of cost) and with the big assumption that additive packs are equivalent and that both oils meet the same industry standards, than I’d say PAO/POE base is better. The reason I do not buy PAO based oils is their cost, limited availability, and questionable additive packs and specs. For example, redline oil is not SN-PLUS, and only SN. I also do not think average user needs them.

but if people ask a question, which base is better, the simple answer is that PAO better than GTL
 
tolian21 said:
I did not say that it will have any impact for an average user, or that everyone should buy PAO based oils. If its purely hypothetical question, which base is better (regardless of cost) and with the big assumption that additive packs are equivalent and that both oils meet the same industry standards, than I’d say PAO/POE base is better. The reason I do not buy PAO based oils is their cost, limited availability, and questionable additive packs and specs. For example, redline oil is not SN-PLUS, and only SN. I also do not think average user needs them.

but if people ask a question, which base is better, the simple answer is that PAO better than GTL
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And Redline isn't licensed API SN.
 
Yeah, I dont know whats the deal with redline. It could have been a great oil if it had all the latest certifications and licensing. I blame redline for it, not PAO
 
tolian21 said:
Their professional series product line does not make claims that its PAO/POE base.
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Really? Then what’s this?

  • FULL SYNTHETIC -- OEM-required Group III/Group IV PAO Base Stocks
  • Lower volatility for reduced oil consumption
  • Long-life certification for improved wear protection following factory drain intervals
  • For high- and low-mileage engines
  • Compatible with conventional and synthetic oils
  • Withstands extreme temperatures
You asked for it: OEM-approved Red Line products, for gasoline and small Diesel engines.
 
MParr said:
Really? Then what’s this?

  • OEM COMPATIBILITY
  • FULL SYNTHETIC -- OEM-required Group III/Group IV PAO Base Stocks
  • Lower volatility for reduced oil consumption
  • Long-life certification for improved wear protection following factory drain intervals
  • For high- and low-mileage engines
  • Compatible with conventional and synthetic oils
  • Withstands extreme temperatures
You asked for it: OEM-approved Red Line products, for gasoline and small Diesel engines.
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The SDS for the product would indicate otherwise.
 
Their professional series says its group3/PAO. But this means nothing, it might be 10% PAO and rest is group 3. Their other product is mostly POE/PAO based.
 
You can also look at pour point temperature between high-performance vs professional series for the same weight. Only when its mostly POE you can get -76F, the other one is not even close
 
Just saying that redline only has one true POE/PAO based product, thats high performance series. But its behind the latest specs. We would be speculating why, could be that redline dropped the ball.
If I had to guess, they dont sell enough of HP series product to justify putting money into certifications, licensing, additional testing, R&D and tweaking additives to meet the latest specs.
 
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Redline is a good oil but in the end it’s just another brand. Is it better than any other major brand? That will depend on what loads and conditions your vehicle is exposed to. If you are racing then it might make a difference. For 99.99% of drivers it won’t.
 
I could never get my grubby little mitts on samples of GTL but my gut feeling is PAO would be narrowly better than GTL in terms of achieving the viscometric/volatility balance you need in multi grade oils.

That said, there one area where GTL is, I believe seriously deficient vs PAO & that is product breadth. You can make PAO to any base oil viscosity you fancy; 4 cst to 40 cst varieties & all points between are widely available, with even heavier ones there for industrial applications if that's your bag. I'm happy to be corrected but from what I recall of Shell patents, GTL comes in 4 & 5 cst flavours & that's your lot! This is fine if you're primarily looking to substitute PAO4 in a 0W-xx top tier engine oil but you wouldn't be able to say make a full GTL 5W50 for track use in the way you absolutely could with PAO.

To re-use a metaphor I employed the other day, GTL is IMHO, another Harriet jump-jet. It attracts a lot of attention because it's 'different' but on closer inspection, it's actually not that big a deal...
 
The true PAO based oils are becoming hard to find, the market moved to cheaper group3/GTL stocks that can also be marketed as synthetic. Due to high price, its difficult for PAO oils to compete with group3/GTL.
I think because PAO based oils are considered boutique oils, used only by small number of people, the R&D is lagging behind to keep up with the latest specs/standards.
 
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tolian21 said:
The true PAO based oils are becoming hard to find, the market moved to cheaper group3/GTL stocks that can also be marketed as synthetic. Due to high price, its difficult for PAO oils to compete with group3/GTL.
I think because PAO based oils are considered boutique oils, used only by small number of people, the R&D is lagging behind to keep up with the latest specs/standards.
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Mobil still uses a considerable amount of PAO in some of their oils, but they are one of the world's largest produces of PAO, so that shouldn't be surprising. Castrol uses it sparingly, seemingly only where absolutely necessary like their 0w-40.

Being PAO-based is one of the reasons I like Ravenol products. OEM approvals out the wazoo, great specs and incredible cold temperature performance due to the PAO base.
 
tolian21 said:
The true PAO based oils are becoming hard to find, the market moved to cheaper group3/GTL stocks that can also be marketed as synthetic. Due to high price, its difficult for PAO oils to compete with group3/GTL.
I think because PAO based oils are considered boutique oils, used only by small number of people, the R&D is lagging behind to keep up with the latest specs/standards.
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GTL base oils are only 'cheaper' if you shut your eyes to the $US 24 billion that Shell splashed out on the Pearl GTL plant in Qatar. I don't know for sure but I suspect the facility lost gargantuan amounts of money last year. Remember that the primary purpose of Pearl is to turn gas into naphtha & distillates with the GTL base stocks simply the heavy grot from the bottom of the fractionation tower. If the plant blew-up tomorrow, I doubt if Shell, knowing what they now know, would choose to rebuild it.
 
OVERKILL said:
Mobil still uses a considerable amount of PAO in some of their oils, but they are one of the world's largest produces of PAO, so that shouldn't be surprising. Castrol uses it sparingly, seemingly only where absolutely necessary like their 0w-40.

Being PAO-based is one of the reasons I like Ravenol products. OEM approvals out the wazoo, great specs and incredible cold temperature performance due to the PAO base.
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yep, and mobil can probably afford to take a loss on some of their mostly PAO base oils like Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0w20. But for smaller companies like redline, they can not afford to drop the price to compete with Mobil 1. Mobil can also change their base stock at any time without telling anyone.

Ravenol is great oil 👍
 
tolian21 said:
yep, and mobil can probably afford to take a loss on some of their mostly PAO base oils like Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0w20. But for smaller companies like redline, they can not afford to drop the price to compete with Mobil 1. Mobil can also change their base stock at any time without telling anyone.

Ravenol is great oil 👍
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As can anyone else, including Redline.

But in the case of those blenders and manufacturers that carry actual approvals and specifications, the re-formulated oils still must meet those just as it did before (unless there is a label change).
 
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