GTL base stocks better than PAO/POE?

[regal55]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
The biggest advantage to GTL and even GrpIII over true synthetics is that seals and gaskets should last longer. A 200k mile car with a ruined rear main seal is a totaled car. It doesn't matter how many di-ester seal "conditiners" are added to a PAO/POE, gasket and seal material scientists target petroleum oil today as they have they last 100 years.

PAO/POE synthetic basestocks are for providing protection for a day at the track not 5+ years of continuous contact to engine seals and gaskets.


And your comment is based on what SAE or STLE papers?


None, just 20 years as a ChE working in the automotive industry, there is no grant money for papers like you want. If you are interested google "POE + Seal" and look at all the "papers" in the HVAC industry where there was plenty of grant money to phase out freon, its just common sense to me, take my experience as you wish. There are valid reasons why OEM's don't sell POA/POE oil at the dealer shelf. There are reasons Autozone, Walmart, etc don't sell POA/POE base stock oils. There are reasons racing shops do.

Do you have any documented cases of a 200k+ mil OEM car fed nothing but redline or Motul that has the original seals and gaskets ?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
The reason why it's recommended is the formula is different from SM to SN and SM has a more desirable formula. It's not a bad idea to stock up on something that's going to disappear. Kinda like hostess products eh?


Yes it seems they took a step backwards with the SN formulation. Same goes for Castrol Edge gold bottle. IMO the SM brew was better than the SN, many of us share that same POV for both products.

 

[regal55]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
The reason why it's recommended is the formula is different from SM to SN and SM has a more desirable formula. It's not a bad idea to stock up on something that's going to disappear. Kinda like hostess products eh?


Yes it seems they took a step backwards with the SN formulation. Same goes for Castrol Edge gold bottle. IMO the SM brew was better than the SN, many of us share that same POV for both products.


I'll keep harping on the seal/gasket issue. One good thing with the GL-5 is the EPA required improvement in this area as engines leaking oil is a huge environmental issue and a blown headgasket or real main seal probably ends just as many car's life as internal wear.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: regal55
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
The biggest advantage to GTL and even GrpIII over true synthetics is that seals and gaskets should last longer. A 200k mile car with a ruined rear main seal is a totaled car. It doesn't matter how many di-ester seal "conditiners" are added to a PAO/POE, gasket and seal material scientists target petroleum oil today as they have they last 100 years.

PAO/POE synthetic basestocks are for providing protection for a day at the track not 5+ years of continuous contact to engine seals and gaskets.


And your comment is based on what SAE or STLE papers?


None, just 20 years as a ChE working in the automotive industry, there is no grant money for papers like you want. If you are interested google "POE + Seal" and look at all the "papers" in the HVAC industry where there was plenty of grant money to phase out freon, its just common sense to me, take my experience as you wish. There are valid reasons why OEM's don't sell POA/POE oil at the dealer shelf. There are reasons Autozone, Walmart, etc don't sell POA/POE base stock oils. There are reasons racing shops do.

Do you have any documented cases of a 200k+ mil OEM car fed nothing but redline or Motul that has the original seals and gaskets ?


Would my 2002 Camaro count at only 192k miles? It has 11 years of me grinding its guts out on road courses from Calabogie in the Canadian woods to Buttonwillow in the California desert. It has been fed nothing but M1 and Red Line since new, and the engine is completely leak-free and burns oil at the rate of 1 quart in 6000 miles.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: richport29
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek
Originally Posted By: BerndV
I see no reason to recommend something that is no longer produced.


Yes, it makes things very confusing for new guys like me.


In Canada we still only get the old SM version of the product.


The case I got from Napa was SN..


I believe that is the first documented case (on this board) of somebody getting Mobil 1 0w-40 SN in Canada then, congrats!!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: regal55
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
The biggest advantage to GTL and even GrpIII over true synthetics is that seals and gaskets should last longer. A 200k mile car with a ruined rear main seal is a totaled car. It doesn't matter how many di-ester seal "conditiners" are added to a PAO/POE, gasket and seal material scientists target petroleum oil today as they have they last 100 years.

PAO/POE synthetic basestocks are for providing protection for a day at the track not 5+ years of continuous contact to engine seals and gaskets.


And your comment is based on what SAE or STLE papers?


None, just 20 years as a ChE working in the automotive industry, there is no grant money for papers like you want. If you are interested google "POE + Seal" and look at all the "papers" in the HVAC industry where there was plenty of grant money to phase out freon, its just common sense to me, take my experience as you wish. There are valid reasons why OEM's don't sell POA/POE oil at the dealer shelf. There are reasons Autozone, Walmart, etc don't sell POA/POE base stock oils. There are reasons racing shops do.

Do you have any documented cases of a 200k+ mil OEM car fed nothing but redline or Motul that has the original seals and gaskets ?


Would my 2002 Camaro count at only 192k miles? It has 11 years of me grinding its guts out on road courses from Calabogie in the Canadian woods to Buttonwillow in the California desert. It has been fed nothing but M1 and Red Line since new, and the engine is completely leak-free and burns oil at the rate of 1 quart in 6000 miles.


How about my 26+ year old E-150, it hasn't leaked or burnt a drop of oil yet.

 

[buster]

Quote:
There are reasons Autozone, Walmart, etc don't sell POA/POE base stock oils


There is and it's called price.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: Mathson
Originally Posted By: Solarent
It's hard for anyone (including oil formulators) to have a real opinion on GTL base stocks being better. That is because Shell is the only one making them and are using them exclusively for internal use. (No one can buy GTL on the open market).


This in untrue. Shell has opened the market.


I think you either misunderstood or are misinformed. GTL base oils are not available to lubricant manufacturers from shell. I was talking with a Rep about buying them last week and were told that it wasn't going to be available.

GTL fuels are a completely different story.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman

Would my 2002 Camaro count at only 192k miles? It has 11 years of me grinding its guts out on road courses from Calabogie in the Canadian woods to Buttonwillow in the California desert.


You put almost 20K a year on that car? Wow. How has the reliability been over your ownership? I've always wanted one but was reluctant to consider it for year round daily driving.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: Mathson
Originally Posted By: Solarent
It's hard for anyone (including oil formulators) to have a real opinion on GTL base stocks being better. That is because Shell is the only one making them and are using them exclusively for internal use. (No one can buy GTL on the open market).


This in untrue. Shell has opened the market.


I think you either misunderstood or are misinformed. GTL base oils are not available to lubricant manufacturers from shell. I was talking with a Rep about buying them last week and were told that it wasn't going to be available.

GTL fuels are a completely different story.


Seems pretty chincy to restrict the sale of gasoil basestocks and keep them proprietary. AFAIK the Pearl project has a very reasonable capacity right now, and barring the initial investment, the production cost is quite profitable. Is this a NOACK monopoly move? Are there even any published specs on the stuff?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: richport29
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: TXCarGeek

I see no reason to recommend something that is no longer produced.

In Canada we still only get the old SM version of the product.


The case I got from Napa was SN..


I believe that is the first documented case (on this board) of somebody getting Mobil 1 0w-40 SN in Canada then, congrats!!


Was the oil from NAPA the US made SN oil in quarts or Canadian made oil in litres?

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: jrustles

Seems pretty chincy to restrict the sale of gasoil basestocks and keep them proprietary. AFAIK the Pearl project has a very reasonable capacity right now, and barring the initial investment, the production cost is quite profitable. Is this a NOACK monopoly move? Are there even any published specs on the stuff?


This is par for the course for most big energy companies - if you look on the Shell website for products made by the GTL process here then you will notice that GTL base oils barely gets any attention. The same is true with most of the other big oil companies - lubricants only represent ~10% of the oil refined in a barrel. So even if the process is good, and it is likely going to to be part of the future of base oils, current supply is limited and Shell will keep theirs internal as a play to increase their already large share of the finished lube market.

To answer your other question - no I have not seen base oil specifications for GTL base stocks the same way we would from other suppliers. AFAIK they are keeping that info to themselves. They have published some really promising information with regards to volatility, VI etc, but nothing like the detail I would like to see.

 

[BerndV]

Originally Posted By: regal55
The biggest advantage to GTL and even GrpIII over true synthetics is that seals and gaskets should last longer. A 200k mile car with a ruined rear main seal is a totaled car. It doesn't matter how many di-ester seal "conditiners" are added to a PAO/POE, gasket and seal material scientists target petroleum oil today as they have they last 100 years.

PAO/POE synthetic basestocks are for providing protection for a day at the track not 5+ years of continuous contact to engine seals and gaskets. Race engines (and some German performance engines) aren't meant to last years of continuous service without a teardown.

This is the biggest reason GTL is so refreshing IMO, a super oil that is still basically a petroleum base. Just wish Walmart still sold PU.


Nonsense. I have been running Redline in my 2005 Sequoia starting at 5000 miles and it leaks zero oil. Furthermore, a leaky rear main seal is a fairly straightforward and routine repair, not a "total loss". My next door neighbor is an Amsoil dealer and has been running it in his F150 for nearly 400,000 miles with zero leaks. German cars that call for Mobil 1 0W-40 are all engineered for PAO seal compatability, as the SM flavor was PAO based.

 

[buster]

Shell, update your Pennzoil Ultra PDS on your homepage. Says GF-4. Thanks.

http://www.pennzoil.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/PENNZOILULTRAFullSyntheticMotorOil.pdf

Apparently Ultra is still GF-4. No one is going to look at the shell.epc site.

 

[BerndV]

+1

 

[147_Grain]

Here you go: http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007304052_201207271342.pdf

 

[TXCarGeek]

Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
Here you go: http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007304052_201207271342.pdf


Thanks for posting that!

 

[richport29]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I believe that is the first documented case (on this board) of somebody getting Mobil 1 0w-40 SN in Canada then, congrats!!



Mobil 1? Sorry, I went back and read the previous posts. I thought you were talking about something else.

 

[BerndV]

Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
Here you go: http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007304052_201207271342.pdf


As Buster stated, nobody is going to the Shell.com website and on the Pennzoil site it lists the old statistics.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: A_Harman

Would my 2002 Camaro count at only 192k miles? It has 11 years of me grinding its guts out on road courses from Calabogie in the Canadian woods to Buttonwillow in the California desert.


You put almost 20K a year on that car? Wow. How has the reliability been over your ownership? I've always wanted one but was reluctant to consider it for year round daily driving.


I tell everyone that it's the best car I've ever owned. I use it as my daily driver in the winter, and I'm a fiend for doing thorough underbody flushes at the quarter car wash about every 3 days when salt is on the roads. In the summer, I put on big brakes and sticky tires and do track days. The track day stuff has forced me to do a lot of wheel bearing changes and brake jobs over the years.

I have burned up two rear ends in it, so I would say that is the weak point of the car.
Just had the transmission rebuilt. Had the clutch replaced, too. But it didn't need it.
The engine has been bulletproof. I always changed the oil according to the OLM up until about 160k miles, but have been extending them over the past few intervals. I resolved when I bought the car to not get inside the engine to make the car faster. I put on low restriction intake and exhaust systems, and that improved power above 5000 rpm. I change the spark plugs and wires every 90k miles, and the coolant every 75k.