Group V vs. Group IV

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Overrated track use only oil


An opinion, do you care to substantiate it?

Quote:
and overkill, not required etc for street use IMO as its very expensive with no builder approvals.


Pretty much any thread that contains the words "Red Line" and user "virginoil" I can except to see a variation of this reply. I've seen no data from you, I've seen no valid observations or experiences, just "it doesn't have builder approvals". Guess what, Red Line wouldn't be selling for $10/quart if it carried API/ILSAC certs, which is a prerequisite for almost any North American OEM approval. Last time I checked Red Line's yearly revenue was only a few million dollars.

Quote:
Use the OEM spec oil with the builders approval, this cannot be over stated. BITOG shouldn't overrule the OEM recommendations.


The car is no longer stock.


Reread what I said. Its my from observations and reading regarding Redline Oil and I used when it first come out here at $14/L now $36/L AUD.

Substantiation for what I have said, I haven't seen any builder approvals, API, ACEA, Ilsax or other from Redline so my observations and opinions are just as valid as Redline's pages and pages of technical stuff.

I guess from your response the OEMs recommendations and guidelines no longer apply, but its a good start.

I do not accept defense for Redline saying its too expensive to obtain approvals and you get what you pay for. Just like the statements you make like "Red Line wouldn't be selling for $10/quart if it carried API/ILSAC certs" at that price they should every approval in existence IMO.

I am degree qualified. I obtained my Bachelor of IMO and my Masters degree of IMO by studying at the University of Life Institute. I am furthering my education I expect to receive my PhD in IMHO shortly from the same University.

 

[SteveSRT8]

I have a record of an online chat with SRT engineers who allege that 300 degrees is not too hot for oil during track use. This was back when they spec'd Mobil 1. I have seen temps near this number in my car at HPDE's.

I for one could care less if a boutique oil has any certifications at all. Unless there's a manufacturers warranty dispute no one else should either.

Pick the oil you want and run it. Most any synthetic these days is better than you need for the track anyway as long as it's the correct grade.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Look for ACEA A3/B4 and you should be fine with a normal OCI.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I have a record of an online chat with SRT engineers who allege that 300 degrees is not too hot for oil during track use. This was back when they spec'd Mobil 1. I have seen temps near this number in my car at HPDE's.

I for one could care less if a boutique oil has any certifications at all. Unless there's a manufacturers warranty dispute no one else should either.

Pick the oil you want and run it. Most any synthetic these days is better than you need for the track anyway as long as it's the correct grade.

My bike hits 300 often. The oil doesn't seem much worse for wear. Amsoil of course

 

[ltslimjim]

^I read somewhere about the critical aspect of timing with regards to servicing a bike and can't help but recall something to do with the timing of oil changes relative to post/pre extreme service(like a track run for example)?

Does anyone know what I'm talking about???

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
^I read somewhere about the critical aspect of timing with regards to servicing a bike and can't help but recall something to do with the timing of oil changes relative to post/pre extreme service(like a track run for example)?

Does anyone know what I'm talking about???

Well on days that my dipstick temp guage hits 300 I check out the oil once it cools off. If the viscosity is gone(happened twice with mobil 1, sump oil was the consistency of water) I change it. As far as oil goes I get amsoil for free so it doesn't bother me if I only put 1000 miles on the oil. I change it at least every month.

 

[shpankey]

I may be completely wrong here so please don't take my word, but I have this faint memory where I thought I read that Red Line, or maybe it was Royal Purple XPR, actually has a small amount of Grp 2 in it, as it was the best group for something in particular. I want to say it was as a "carrier", whatever that is, & the group iv was for seals or something. But I seem to remember them saying group 2 was the best of all groups at that 1 thing & therefore it was included in these high end, predominantly grp v oils.

Hopefully someone can chime in & correct my mistakes as my memory sucks nowadays.

 

[shpankey]

Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Overrated track use only oil


An opinion, do you care to substantiate it?

Quote:
and overkill, not required etc for street use IMO as its very expensive with no builder approvals.


Pretty much any thread that contains the words "Red Line" and user "virginoil" I can except to see a variation of this reply. I've seen no data from you, I've seen no valid observations or experiences, just "it doesn't have builder approvals". Guess what, Red Line wouldn't be selling for $10/quart if it carried API/ILSAC certs, which is a prerequisite for almost any North American OEM approval. Last time I checked Red Line's yearly revenue was only a few million dollars.

Quote:
Use the OEM spec oil with the builders approval, this cannot be over stated. BITOG shouldn't overrule the OEM recommendations.


The car is no longer stock.


Reread what I said. Its my from observations and reading regarding Redline Oil and I used when it first come out here at $14/L now $36/L AUD.

Substantiation for what I have said, I haven't seen any builder approvals, API, ACEA, Ilsax or other from Redline so my observations and opinions are just as valid as Redline's pages and pages of technical stuff.

I guess from your response the OEMs recommendations and guidelines no longer apply, but its a good start.

I do not accept defense for Redline saying its too expensive to obtain approvals and you get what you pay for. Just like the statements you make like "Red Line wouldn't be selling for $10/quart if it carried API/ILSAC certs" at that price they should every approval in existence IMO.

I am degree qualified. I obtained my Bachelor of IMO and my Masters degree of IMO by studying at the University of Life Institute. I am furthering my education I expect to receive my PhD in IMHO shortly from the same University.

Then it shouldn't be that hard, since you're degree qualified and an expert on this brand of oil to know it's Red Line and not Redline.

There are other benefits to running Red Line Oil in his turbo, as I and many others can testify to it providing a quicker spooling turbo, and also, if it's Direct Injected (?) there is evidence out there (ask saaber1 for pics as I'm under NDA to not share them myself) as to it minimizing intake valve deposits. Something for us D.I. folks that makes it worth the cost alone. Oh and did I mention the quicker spooling of the turbo

P.S. I hope this post didn't come off as snarky. I'm jesting in good fun.

 

[E46M3]

I finally made a decision.

I bought 12 quarts of Red Line 0w30 and 12 quarts of 0w40. I plan on mixing half and half when I do an oil change. Got a great deal at $8.78 per quart if anyone else is intersted http://nextlevelracing.org/store/Redline-0W30-Motor-Oil-1quart-12.html

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: shpankey
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Overrated track use only oil


An opinion, do you care to substantiate it?

Quote:
and overkill, not required etc for street use IMO as its very expensive with no builder approvals.


Pretty much any thread that contains the words "Red Line" and user "virginoil" I can except to see a variation of this reply. I've seen no data from you, I've seen no valid observations or experiences, just "it doesn't have builder approvals". Guess what, Red Line wouldn't be selling for $10/quart if it carried API/ILSAC certs, which is a prerequisite for almost any North American OEM approval. Last time I checked Red Line's yearly revenue was only a few million dollars.

Quote:
Use the OEM spec oil with the builders approval, this cannot be over stated. BITOG shouldn't overrule the OEM recommendations.


The car is no longer stock.


Reread what I said. Its my from observations and reading regarding Redline Oil and I used when it first come out here at $14/L now $36/L AUD.

Substantiation for what I have said, I haven't seen any builder approvals, API, ACEA, Ilsax or other from Redline so my observations and opinions are just as valid as Redline's pages and pages of technical stuff.

I guess from your response the OEMs recommendations and guidelines no longer apply, but its a good start.

I do not accept defense for Redline saying its too expensive to obtain approvals and you get what you pay for. Just like the statements you make like "Red Line wouldn't be selling for $10/quart if it carried API/ILSAC certs" at that price they should every approval in existence IMO.

I am degree qualified. I obtained my Bachelor of IMO and my Masters degree of IMO by studying at the University of Life Institute. I am furthering my education I expect to receive my PhD in IMHO shortly from the same University.

Then it shouldn't be that hard, since you're degree qualified and an expert on this brand of oil to know it's Red Line and not Redline.

There are other benefits to running Red Line Oil in his turbo, as I and many others can testify to it providing a quicker spooling turbo, and also, if it's Direct Injected (?) there is evidence out there (ask saaber1 for pics as I'm under NDA to not share them myself) as to it minimizing intake valve deposits. Something for us D.I. folks that makes it worth the cost alone. Oh and did I mention the quicker spooling of the turbo

P.S. I hope this post didn't come off as snarky. I'm jesting in good fun.

As you know my PhD in IMO is all in my Universal Experience that I have observed and read in Life and it should be taken in spirit in which it was written. (with some jest)

I think there should be freedom on this forum to express an opinion, without having to have a swag of used oil analysis, steering committees etc.

Providing it doesn't generate and demean the person or thread or other. My post to some effect does provide support to other forum members that may have a particular view but don't have the technical expertise or legal/science qualifications to defend the view if it was the subject of debate in a court of law, other than observation and experience in in forming of the opinion.

It still may make an IMO valid.

 

[wiswind]

$8.78 a quart is a great price!

My opinion on the certifications is that a small company, like Red Line Oil has to look at the cost that they must recover......spread out over how much of the product that they expect to sell.
A big brand name, like Mobil 1, has MANY MANY more units that they expect to sell to spread the cost out over.
The small company, with fewer selling units must charge more per unit for the certification.
The same applies to production costs as well.

The trade of that many make is "How much trust do you have in the company?"
If you don't have the trust in Red Line Oil Company, then you might move on to another selection.

As for the choice between Red Line 0w30 and 0W-40 as already mentioned, take a look at the HTHS specication.
The HTHS specification for Redline Oil tends to run on the heavy side.
In other words, the Red Line 0w30 HTHS value may look a bit like another brand's 0W-40 HTHS value.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: wiswind

As for the choice between Red Line 0w30 and 0W-40 as already mentioned, take a look at the HTHS specication.
The HTHS specification for Redline Oil tends to run on the heavy side.
In other words, the Red Line 0w30 HTHS value may look a bit like another brand's 0W-40 HTHS value.

Red Line 0w30 has a published HTHSV of 3.2cP.
I think you're thinking of Red Line 5w30 with it's HTHSV of 3.8cP that is in line with many 40wt oils.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: virginoil
Reread what I said. Its my from observations and reading regarding Redline Oil and I used when it first come out here at $14/L now $36/L AUD.


On what do you base your observations? I'm just looking for you to substantiate your opinion here.

Quote:
or other from Redline so my observations and opinions are just as valid as Redline's pages and pages of technical stuff.


Red Line's white papers contain actual technical information, your observations and opinions are anecdotal at best.

Quote:
I do not accept defense for Redline saying its too expensive to obtain approvals and you get what you pay for.


I do not accept the theory that an API or ILSAC certification would in any way improve the product. Look at Amsoil, their cheaper oils are API and ILSAC certified and yet their most expensive formulations are not. I wonder why?

Quote:
Just like the statements you make like "Red Line wouldn't be selling for $10/quart if it carried API/ILSAC certs" at that price they should every approval in existence IMO.


Motor oils blended similarly to Red Line (high ester content, high content additive package) are generally in the $14-$15/quart range. Red Line could not continue selling their oils for $10 and pay for all of those approvals, the formulations themselves are too expensive and they don't move enough volume to spread out those costs.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Reread what I said. Its my from observations and reading regarding Redline Oil and I used when it first come out here at $14/L now $36/L AUD.


On what do you base your observations? I'm just looking for you to substantiate your opinion here.

Over the years on BITOG experienced oil tribologists on this forum have commented on Redline oils and I have made note of these and I just parrot them from time to time. As the search function on BITOG was changed some years ago I am unable to pin point these so please accept this statement in good faith, I have nothing to gain in trying to deceive you.

Quote:
or other from Redline so my observations and opinions are just as valid as Redline's pages and pages of technical stuff.


Red Line's white papers contain actual technical information, your observations and opinions are anecdotal at best.

It takes the same amount of faith to accept or reject Redlines comments as it does mine. If don't believe me fine.

Quote:
I do not accept defense for Redline saying its too expensive to obtain approvals and you get what you pay for.


I do not accept the theory that an API or ILSAC certification would in any way improve the product. Look at Amsoil, their cheaper oils are API and ILSAC certified and yet their most expensive formulations are not. I wonder why?

I rely on an API, Ilsax, ACEA or OEM builder approval as I admit I don't have the technical expertise to dissect, analyse, approve or disapprove Redlines, Amsoils or other oils just like many others on this site don't have either. Your question has arisen from general obseravtions just like the comments I make from reading of the opinions from others overs the years

Quote:
Just like the statements you make like "Red Line wouldn't be selling for $10/quart if it carried API/ILSAC certs" at that price they should every approval in existence IMO.


Motor oils blended similarly to Red Line (high ester content, high content additive package) are generally in the $14-$15/quart range. Red Line could not continue selling their oils for $10 and pay for all of those approvals, the formulations themselves are too expensive and they don't move enough volume to spread out those costs.

So you say so. It is your opinion and my opinion is just as valid as yours. Experienced tribologists on this site have said over the years its basically a racing oil and overkill for many street use applications at that price. Better value can be found in OEM recommended oils. No proof ever offered on BITOG to substantiate the fact that the Redline Oil price could and cannot not be reduced. Its all speculation just like my comments that it can't, and thats what Redline want you to believe.


I trust I have answered your queries as it will be unlikely we we ever will reach agreement on Redline. I am signing off on this matter (on this thread) but I will continue to make comments regarding Redline when it is placed on a pedestal that I believe it doesn't have in other threads.

My last statement to you is with this question "Are receiving a promotional fee or free oil from Redline to push it on this forum."

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: virginoil
Over the years on BITOG experienced oil tribologists on this forum have commented on Redline oils and I have made note of these and I just parrot them from time to time. As the search function on BITOG was changed some years ago I am unable to pin point these so please accept this statement in good faith, I have nothing to gain in trying to deceive you.


Red Line seems to be held in high regard by Bruce T, Molakule, and Terry Dyson among others. So who are you parroting?

Quote:
[color:#CC0000]So you say so. It is your opinion and my opinion is just as valid as yours.


Show me a high ester content, highly additived oil selling for less than $10 per quart retail. Now show me the same with ACEA or OEM licensing.

Quote:
My last statement to you is with this question "Are receiving a promotional fee or free oil from Redline to push it on this forum."


I wish. I do not work for Red Line, I do not sell Red Line products, I do not know anyone that works for Red Line personally, I benefit from no Red Line sponsorships, I have no professional or personal association with Red Line.

 

[shpankey]

I get nothing of value from Red Line Oil either other than what the properties of the oil it provides my engine: shear resistance, quicker spooling turbo, minimal intake valve deposits for my direct injected engine, resistance to fuel dilution deterioration, high levels of moly, zink, ph, detergents & wear protection additives, & a high level of protection due to its properties to resist heat etc.

I don't even get a small discount. And the program I'm a part of that studies oils & their abilities in regards to direct injected turbo's doesn't even push Red Line as they are creating their own oils & cleaners. It's just an aside that they've tested Red Line (among other oils) & noticed how well it does in these regards to the lower deposits & quicker turbo spool-up. These are using scientific methods (boroscoped, tear-downs, dyno before/after results & standardized mpg tests (many, many flat & straight 5 mile highway tests to & from @ exactly 55mph over & over & over and averaging the results of at least 10 runs throwing out the high & low of each. All weather data recorded during each to keep the conditions as close as possible.

I will say the results on intake valve deposits Red Line had were some of the most very impressive. Enough so to make me stick w/ it permanently.

This is being performed by a very well regarded member here & a former lead chemists of a leading oil company. They are developing their own products, to which we've been testing different formulations for quite some time now. And while they pay for all products & tests & equipment I use in full, none of this is in any way related to Red Line Oil. I'm just myself relaying its impressive results to you myself. In the end they are developing their own oil designed specifically for D.I.vehicles they hope will surpass even Red Line's, but their main goal is a product used to remove existing intake valve deposits. Their latest formulation is extremly effective btw.

 

[E46M3]

Originally Posted By: shpankey
I get nothing of value from Red Line Oil either other than what the properties of the oil it provides my engine: shear resistance, quicker spooling turbo, minimal intake valve deposits for my direct injected engine, resistance to fuel dilution deterioration, high levels of moly, zink, ph, detergents & wear protection additives, & a high level of protection due to its properties to resist heat etc.

I don't even get a small discount. And the program I'm a part of that studies oils & their abilities in regards to direct injected turbo's doesn't even push Red Line as they are creating their own oils & cleaners. It's just an aside that they've tested Red Line (among other oils) & noticed how well it does in these regards to the lower deposits & quicker turbo spool-up. These are using scientific methods (boroscoped, tear-downs, dyno before/after results & standardized mpg tests (many, many flat & straight 5 mile highway tests to & from @ exactly 55mph over & over & over and averaging the results of at least 10 runs throwing out the high & low of each. All weather data recorded during each to keep the conditions as close as possible.

I will say the results on intake valve deposits Red Line had were some of the most very impressive. Enough so to make me stick w/ it permanently.

This is being performed by a very well regarded member here & a former lead chemists of a leading oil company. They are developing their own products, to which we've been testing different formulations for quite some time now. And while they pay for all products & tests & equipment I use in full, none of this is in any way related to Red Line Oil. I'm just myself relaying its impressive results to you myself. In the end they are developing their own oil designed specifically for D.I.vehicles they hope will surpass even Red Line's, but their main goal is a product used to remove existing intake valve deposits. Their latest formulation is extremly effective btw.

Good to hear. The BMW N54 is know to have intake valve deposit issues. I actually removed my intake and cleaned mine 6 months ago and it wasn't a fun job. If Red Line helps to prevent or delay this then I am sold.

 

[E46M3]

Just changed my oil in my 135i with 3 quarts of Red Line 0w30 and 3 quarts of Red Line 0w40 and it runs very smooth. The idle is smoother and the turbos feel like they spool up quicker. I will report back in about 5k with a used oil analysis to see the results.

I have been running GC for the past 4k. I am getting ready to send that sample to Blackstone to see the results.

 

[45ACP]

Originally Posted By: E46M3
Just changed my oil in my 135i with 3 quarts of Red Line 0w30 and 3 quarts of Red Line 0w40 and it runs very smooth. The idle is smoother and the turbos feel like the spool up quicker. I will report back in about 5k with a used oil analysis to see the results.

I have been running GC for the past 4k. I am getting ready to send that sample to Blackstone to see the results.


That is a very very good mix and i would do that on BMW i will have in the future as well. Though i might get an E36 or E30, if i cant find a 2004 Z4 or a ZHP. Or 2003 M5.. i love them all!

 

[nleksan]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I have a record of an online chat with SRT engineers who allege that 300 degrees is not too hot for oil during track use. This was back when they spec'd Mobil 1. I have seen temps near this number in my car at HPDE's.

I for one could care less if a boutique oil has any certifications at all. Unless there's a manufacturers warranty dispute no one else should either.

Pick the oil you want and run it. Most any synthetic these days is better than you need for the track anyway as long as it's the correct grade.


Haha, once again I find myself agreeing with everything you say here.