Group III better then IV?

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34,194
Location
South Jersey
I found this on the web.... "I put in some serious time reading up on oils for 1.8t, this is what I found and how I'd rank them. User account number (aid): 27563 Posted by Audi Junkie on 2002-11-03 21:03:17 I've been putting in overtime at theoildrop.com From what I can gather, a chipped 1.8t is very hard on oil. Synthetic is a must. Synthetic means several things though. Group III is "cheaper" hydro-cracked molecules (big molecules made smaller) and has decent properties which can be enhanced with good additive packages to perform even better than the true synth that everybody whines about.(small molecules made bigger) That kind of synth is Group IV (PAO) or Group V (Esters) In your engine, there is not really a ton of difference except: wear, friction, seal swelling/shrinking and deposits. Wear and friction can be minimized with additives like moly, phosphorus, zddp, etc. These are *important* to handle the Extreme Pressure of turbo & diesel engine parts. EP additives take over and form a barrier when the oil film is broken down(squeezed) and prevents metal contact and scoring. Otc oils have minimal amounts of these compounds. Seal swelling is addressed in advanced formula synthetic Group IV and V oils by blending PAO and esters, to balance the fact one swells them and one shrinks them! As far as deposits, it is a critical consideration in 1.8t engines. When you shutdown, a portion of oil in the turbo is cooked and this is where vastly different results occur. A PAO (polyalphaolefin)sp? Group IV oil will leave a hard (plastic?) deposit where a ester based Group V oil *will* evaporate cleanly without a deposit. (possibly, Group III does too) This is where reading and learning the whole story is important, the PAO has a higher flashpoint, but leaves the harmfull deposit when it does burn off. Looking at the specs alone is misleading. As far as I can tell, a Group III oil with good additives can therefore be better in your engine then the eliteist Group IV! It tests better, works better but people want the built-up "true synth". Now, the big question is what are the contents of the various otc oils! Mobil 1 0w-40, GroupIV, NOT the Group III that everyone (including me) speculated Mobil 1 SuperSyn had converted to. Is it beter than a good III? No, for the one reason of the PAO deposits, additive packages may not be as good too. It is not a bad oil, but there is a bias against it at TOD.com Surprisingly, the ACEA 3/upcoming GF-4 rating is a bad thing in terms of the metallic additives that protect your engine! This is mostly because of strict Euro enviromental regulations, and the 0w weight is for fuel savings not for top engine protection!(CAFE standard mpg is based on recommeded oil grades!) So, a quality API SL Group III synth is fine, which allows more choices other than M1, like 5w-XX. BTW-Most otc synths are, regardless of what the maker says, Group III, specialty synths are IV and V as well as M1. What you want in your chipped 1.8t is something like the Mercedes-approved synths: (I put them in order based on my readings) 1)Kendall GT-1 FullSynth 5W-40 2)Chevron Supreme Synthetic 5W-40 3)Valvoline Synpower 5W-40 4)Havoline Synthetic 5W-40 5)Pennzoil Synthetic Euro 5W-40 6)Mobil 1 0W-40 and 15W-50 7)Quaker State Synthetic Euro 5W-40 8)Castrol Syntec 10W-40 and 5W-50 or if you drive it really hard, use a mixed-use oil like Delvac 5w-40 or Rotella T 5w-40 with plenty of EP additives. Testing seems to be the key to finding out what is in an oil and what it does over time. 2 tests, before and after. It is a bit confusing but people at theoildrop.com can help interpret test results. I am, by far, no
 
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6,388
Location
Washington St.
In sum, I think that guy got more wrong than right. a) Phosphorus is part of ZDDP, not something separate (zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate or zinc diaryl dithiophosphate). b) I don't think any motor oils have EP additives--yes, antiwear additives, but don't only gear oils and greases have extreme pressure additives? c) Many (most?, just about all?) OTC oils have sufficient AW additives. d) Seal swell or shrink is a non issue with current oils. e) Lets see some quality documentation about any deposit left by hot PAO on t/c bearings. f) How about more quality documentation that Mobil 1 0W-40, which has the top ACEA A3 rating, is inferior to any available oil based on a G-III base stock. Ken
 
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2,923
Location
Georgia/Retired
I agree, I believe that he has simply read very much information on this bulletin board and gotten a few things confused. Unfortunately this information makes its way back to other bulletin boards and this is how bad data is spread.
 
Messages
8,937
Location
SC
quote:
Originally posted by Ken2: In sum, I think that guy got more wrong than right. ... b) I don't think any motor oils have EP additives--yes, antiwear additives, but don't only gear oils and greases have extreme pressure additives?
No, he got this one right. ZDDP (and other similar additives) are "extreme pressure" additives because they only come into play when "extreme pressue" squeezes the oil film to the point it breaks down and metal-to-metal contact would result were it not for the additive.
 
Messages
922
Location
Ontario , Canada
where's he been putting in the time ?. One thing I immediately gathered from this board the first time I registered was that group 3 oils do not perform all that better than conventional group one or two+ oils. I doubt that guy has ever done an oil analysis of any oil, yet he promotes some pretty strong views. Since when do synthetic oils leave plastic behind in your engine ?, this guy is loopy. [Eek!]
 
Messages
8,937
Location
SC
quote:
Originally posted by Idrinkmotoroil: where's he been putting in the time ?. One thing I immediately gathered from this board the first time I registered was that group 3 oils do not perform all that better than conventional group one or two+ oils. I doubt that guy has ever done an oil analysis of any oil, yet he promotes some pretty strong views. Since when do synthetic oils leave plastic behind in your engine ?, this guy is loopy. [Eek!]
Where did you get this from on here? I can't recall seeing any analysis results from a Group III based oil posted in the UOA section. [Confused] What I have noticed, however, is that if drains are kept reasonable, there are several conventional oils that post numbers just as good as the PAO and PAO blends. [Eek!]
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
22,000
Location
Guelph, Ontario
If you go back in the UOA section here and look at all the posts from the beginning you will find a few group 3 oil analysis results. I personally remember posting a couple of Syntec results that I found, and remember seeing a few Valvoline Synpower results too. They are in there, sometimes you have to dig though, since the title might not be labelled right. It helps when people label their UOA reports with the oil brand, viscosity, mileage and the vehicle used.
 
Messages
5,069
Location
Saratoga, NY
I agree about ZDDP & moly being called "Extreme Pressure" additives. It might not be in keeping with current petro-chemical lingo but the compounds do seem to fit the definition. As far as PAO leaving a hard deposit when pushed above and beyond the call of duty, I saw evidence on Red Line's site ... but not here. [Confused] I forgot the test they ran, but Red Line pushed the temps to an extreme level and found that mineral stocks (presumably Group I & II) would evaporate off rather cleanly but PAO would evaporate off and leave a serious deposit behind. Of course, Red Line claims their polyol formulas survive this test rather well. [Wink] Having read through the NPRA paper of 1999, I'll concede that Group III is a serious improvment over Group II ... but their own data showed PAO holds the edge in every category. Also, we don't know how Group II+ would fare. Is the performance closer to a Group II or III? My position all along on this issue is that Group III oils are very good oils ... but they are not worth $4.50+ per quart retail, especially with an indifferent additive package. [Roll Eyes] In short, the companies bottling this stuff and charging 2 to 3 times the price of Group II or II+ oils are hosing us. [Mad] Also, the way Castrol talks about their Group III formula having "higher performance" (presumably measured against PAOs) is just a bunch of bunk and is probably the reason many of us are mistrustful of companies tinkering with the formulas and then marking them up. Are they selling us just slightly improved oils at a higher price? This is a legitimate concern all of us as informed consumers should have. --- Bror Jace [ December 27, 2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Bror Jace ]
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
22,000
Location
Guelph, Ontario
So how many people on here right now are running a group 3 oil and plan on doing analysis? I really would like to see more of them for comparison, and as I've mentioned in a few other threads, I'm planning on trying some out in my sister's car. I'm going to do a 10,000km interval with Castrol GTX, then followed by a 10,000km interval with Syntec. I have bashed this oil so much in the past that I figured I'd give it a try to see if it performs under my controlled conditions. I will follow the Syntec run with a run with Mobil 1 SuperSyn. The car currently is running SL formula TriSyn. All intervals will be 10,000km (6200 miles) and my sister drives almost all highway, at a rate of about 4-500 miles per week. Also, for the Canadians, I wouldn't mind seeing someone try out Canadian Tire's Formula 1 synthetic. It's on sale this week by the way. I know it's made by Shell, but other than that I know nothing about this oil. It would be interesting to see how it performs since it's one of the cheapest group 3 synthetics you can buy up here, next to Walmart's Tech 2000 synthetic.
 

Al

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19,252
Location
Elizabethtown, Pa
Patman: I am running Rotella T Syn in my '94 Toyota 2.4L. I did an analysis on Mobil 1 10W-30 prior to putting in the Rotella (am waiting on the results). It will be another year until I change again. I only put 6K on per year. BTW-about 2 years ago I was talking to the Pennzoil Tech Rep and he indicated to me that the Pennzoil (Group III) was a better higher temperature performer than the Quaker State (at the time it was PAO). File that in the "for what its worth" catagory. [ December 27, 2002, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Al ]
 
Messages
371
Location
TYLER, TEXAS
quote:
Originally posted by buster: When you shutdown, a portion of oil in the turbo is cooked and this is where vastly different results occur.
If you shut down a turbo motor correctly, you won't have any oil "cooked" in the turbo. [Roll Eyes] [LOL!] Always idle the motor for about 30 seconds to one minute (sometimes longer) before shutting down, depending on how hard you just drove.
 
Messages
8,937
Location
SC
quote:
Originally posted by Patman: So how many people on here right now are running a group 3 oil and plan on doing analysis?
As I mentioned in another thread, I'm currently running Rotella T Synthetic and plan to change it somewhere between 6000 and 7500 miles. I will post an analysis of it then. As soon as Blackstone sends me the "free" sampling kit, I'm planning on getting a VOA of it ASAP.
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,909
Location
Iowegia - USA
I agree about ZDDP & moly being called "Extreme Pressure" additives. It might not be in keeping with current petro-chemical lingo but the compounds do seem to fit the definition. "As far as PAO leaving a hard deposit when pushed above and beyond the call of duty, I saw evidence on Red Line's sight ... but not here. I forgot the test they ran, but Red Line pushed the temps to an extreme level and found that mineral stocks (presumably Group I & II) would evaporate off rather cleanly but PAO would evaporate off and leave a serious deposit behind. Of course, Red Line claims their polyol formulas survive this test rather well." And since esters are very polar, they will should clean-up any deposits left by PAO's. Bror is correct - The technical literature does use the term "Extreme Pressure" (EP)to describe additives in the engine as well that guards against wear in extreme pressure environments. EP is not just the domain of gear lubes and transmissions.
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
22,000
Location
Guelph, Ontario
I wonder if the Canadian Tire Formula 1 synthetic could actually be Rotella T then? As I said, it's supplied by Shell, and it's a group 3 oil so what are the chances that they could be the same?
 
Messages
5,069
Location
Saratoga, NY
Bob, is that Micron Moly? [Confused] Patman, I think the problem with a couple of the most widely-used Group III synthetics is that their additive packages aren't all too hot. I'm thinking of Castrol Syntec and Valvoline Synpower. Oh, and if you switch to one of these "pretend synthetics" after using a moly oil, you will be giving that oil and unfair advantage because your motor will be internally coated with moly. [Duh!] --- Bror Jace
 
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