Thanks for the info ekpolk. Goes to show if cold-starts weren't a concern, Toyota wouldn't have added those subsystems and the associated costs.
greatest contribution to wear reduction
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You might be able to reduce wear if you only drove in good weather and took long trips with few stops, and had good driving habits. Any current API spec oil of the right viscosity would then do a better job. For the things we have control of, better driving habits would make the biggest difference in wear, and although difficult to be calm all the time, it is cheaper than synthetic oil. If you could do all your commuting in an economical car, and have a spare rocket to let it rip on the weekends. It would be better than having one car do both types of service. In the long run, you might save money, too.
[/QUOTE] Upon shutdown, the car pumps 3L of hot coolant into a thermal bottle that's capable of keeping it at or near op temp for three days (I assume that time drops with ambient temps, to some extent). [/QB][/QUOTE]
Thermal bottle wasn't made by Thermos?? I wish mine kept coffee hot for 3 days!!
Maybe they need a heat exchanger and a spout, with a reservoir you fill up with coffee and let the engine heat it for you... even after it's off! Ever heard the old expression, "does everything, and even makes coffee too!" ??
Thermal bottle wasn't made by Thermos?? I wish mine kept coffee hot for 3 days!!
Interesting. I know an engineer who liked to tinker. 20 years ago he modified his car by putting a small hot water heater in the trunk, with a pump connected into the cooling system. He never had to plug his car in even during cold weather. He just turned the pump on, waited a few minutes and started up the car. We thought he was nuts!
"Since you got the same numbers that I did, I guess you need help too."
Simple stuff. You make a comment about someone's math, do a calculation, and get the same result. You consistently seem to make pointless, invalid comments, just to push people's buttons, and then complain that others are just trying to push buttons. Drop the pointless, invalid comments, and people won't rub your nose into your own mess.
"A 200 mile commute, or 400 miles a day isn't that uncommon, considering delivery, sales, etc., so there should be LOTS of vehicles with a million miles, instead of very, very few."
Again, simple stuff. A number of people suggested that your estimates for cold start wear were too high, you posted an example, and I posted a counter example using your assmuptions. The counter example that I posted suggests that we should be seeing lots of 1 million mile vehicles, but we don't. The problem might be with a couple of assumptions, one being the amount of wear due to cold starts, and the other using the assumed cold start wear being that engines have an inherent 2 million mile or so life with which to determine actual engine life.
It's a simple model that we're using, and by agreeing on some commonly observed engine lifes we could fine tune the assumed wear due to cold starts.
Simple stuff. You make a comment about someone's math, do a calculation, and get the same result. You consistently seem to make pointless, invalid comments, just to push people's buttons, and then complain that others are just trying to push buttons. Drop the pointless, invalid comments, and people won't rub your nose into your own mess.
"A 200 mile commute, or 400 miles a day isn't that uncommon, considering delivery, sales, etc., so there should be LOTS of vehicles with a million miles, instead of very, very few."
Again, simple stuff. A number of people suggested that your estimates for cold start wear were too high, you posted an example, and I posted a counter example using your assmuptions. The counter example that I posted suggests that we should be seeing lots of 1 million mile vehicles, but we don't. The problem might be with a couple of assumptions, one being the amount of wear due to cold starts, and the other using the assumed cold start wear being that engines have an inherent 2 million mile or so life with which to determine actual engine life.
It's a simple model that we're using, and by agreeing on some commonly observed engine lifes we could fine tune the assumed wear due to cold starts.
What's your problem 1sttruck? It's a simple model and it was presented in the most general sense using data from studies that show what the average trip length is for the majority of people. If you don't like it, complain to the guy who published the paper, not me.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015963;p=1#000001
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015963;p=1#000024
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015963;p=3#000052
And as people pointed out particular cases, I acknowledged the percentages would change.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015963;p=1#000022
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015963;p=3#000051
Further, friendly_jacek presented studies that generally agree with what I presented.
Finally, your example showed that cold start-up wear contributed only 50% of total wear. How much more do want me to acknowledge the fact that it will change for every particular case?
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015963;p=1#000001
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015963;p=1#000024
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015963;p=3#000052
And as people pointed out particular cases, I acknowledged the percentages would change.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015963;p=1#000022
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015963;p=3#000051
Further, friendly_jacek presented studies that generally agree with what I presented.
Finally, your example showed that cold start-up wear contributed only 50% of total wear. How much more do want me to acknowledge the fact that it will change for every particular case?
I think this post has plenty of useful information. Why does'nt some one close it?
The PAPER AIR FILTER, replacing the old oil bath air cleaner, is the most significant factor for increasing engine overhaul periods.
When CHINA imported the 2.2 Chrysler engine assembly line, they experienced lots of cylinder bore wear and short overhaul periods. But they were still using the oil bath air cleaner. When they switched to paper air filters, the problem completely disappeared.
When CHINA imported the 2.2 Chrysler engine assembly line, they experienced lots of cylinder bore wear and short overhaul periods. But they were still using the oil bath air cleaner. When they switched to paper air filters, the problem completely disappeared.
I can believe that pacecar. When did they start equipping 90% of vehicles with paper air filters?
I might disagree on the oil bath air filter inferior to the paper filter. The old oil bath was by far the most efficient of trapping a lot of very fine particles that would not be stopped by the paper air filter. Just now, they are going to oil impregnated filters that you can wash that companies have shown to reduce harmful particulate matter drawn into the engine from the air/fuel source. K&N has been quite busy with this sort of endeavour, and so has Amsoil.
The oil bath was a messy situation, and because of that I believe it was neglected and overlooked a lot of the time that it should have been serviced. They came up with paper filters to eliminate the need to clean the oil bath filters, as I belive 1> People wanted something simpler, even if it meant throwing it away (disposable) and 2> People did not like cleaning those oil bath air filters and so they fell into neglect (idea of mine, and I don't have a doc to prove it).
The oil bath was a messy situation, and because of that I believe it was neglected and overlooked a lot of the time that it should have been serviced. They came up with paper filters to eliminate the need to clean the oil bath filters, as I belive 1> People wanted something simpler, even if it meant throwing it away (disposable) and 2> People did not like cleaning those oil bath air filters and so they fell into neglect (idea of mine, and I don't have a doc to prove it).
To be fair, he never said they were inferior, just that vehicles equipped with them wore out faster. Make something difficult and/or messy to maintain and a lot of people won't do it.
Try answering my post again, pointing out in a rational and understandably way how my math is incorrect and my definition of start up wear is incorrect. And please stick strictly to what I said.quote:
Originally posted by 427Z06:
Well...math isn't your strong point I presume?
AND EXACTLY WHICH OF MY MATHEMATICAL CALCULATIONS IS INCORRECT? IF YOU'RE GOING TO INSULT MY MATH ABILITY, THE LEAST YOU CAN DO IS POINT OUT THE ERROR(S) IN MY MATH.
Seriously, you make the mistake of equating start-up wear miles as defined above with actual miles on a typical vehicle.
Recall that startup-wear miles are normalized to the wear rate with fresh oil at steady highway speeds.
YOU ARE THE ONE THAT QUOTED A STUDY THAT SAID THAT START UP WEAR MILES WERE "NORMALIZED TO THE WEAR RATE WITH FRESH OIL AT STEADY HIGHWAY SPEEDS". I TAKE THAT STATEMENT TO EQUATE START UP WEAR MILES TO MILES DRIVEN DOWN THE ROAD, SO THAT A START UP WEAR MILE EQUALS A MILE DURING WHICH THE CAR IS DRIVEN DOWN THE ROAD. THIS DEFINITION/EQUATION IS FINE WITH ME. ITS WHAT I USED IN MY POST. I SEE NO MISTAKE IN WHAT I SAID.
This means that the average engine, with average maintenance, in the average climate starts out with approximately 2 millions miles of life. Toyotas probably start off with 3-4 million miles.
WHAT THE HECK DOES THAT MEAN? I HAVEN'T THE SLIGHTEST IDEA WHAT YOU ARE SAYING HERE. ARE YOU PERHAPS TRYING TO SAY THAT THE AVERAGE NEW ENGINE WOULD GO 2 MILLION MILES IF IT WERE NOT SUBJECTED TO STARTUP WEAR? IF SO, YOUR FIGURE IS APPARENTLY BASED ON YOUR BELIEF AS TO WHAT PERCENTAGE OF ENGINE WEAR IS CAUSED BY START UPS. A BELIEF THAT SOME OF US THINK IS INCORRECT. IF THAT BELIEF IS INCORRECT, THEN SO IS YOUR 2 MILLION MILE FIGURE.
Also, one has to define what worn out means. A worn out engine may still run, but one or more of the engine specifications are out of spec. This could be one or more of the following: bearing clearances, piston/ring clearances, bore taper, leakdown rate, chain stretch, etc, etc.
Your example above still gives you 5 years of starting a cold engine and running it up to temperature twice a day, everyday, before something is out of spec. And if you drove for 10 miles each start, 36,500 miles would be on the odometer.
I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR REASONING IN YOUR LAST PARAGRAPH. I DOUBT THAT ANY OF US DO.
I would say that average BITOGER is in the 200 miles of wear per start up range. And many are probably closer to the 100 miles of wear per start up range.
this was my understanding, but i cannot find any data to back it up
do you have any links please?
Here are a few factoids for this thread:
1. Fuel injection is the single biggest reason for improved engine wear we have seen today. It has been proved that most engine wear is caused by carbon particles formed from blow-by. Eliminating these particles can improve valvetrain life by a factor of five, engine bearings by a similar factor, and piston ring life is improved. The fuel injection system running a constant stoichiometric air/fuel ratio significantly reduces blow-by and the carbon particles.
2. Plateau honing of the cylinder wall has proved more important for ring life than anything else since the 60's.
3. American engine main bearing wear was greatly improved when American manufacturers discovered that a stiff crank with oversize diameter bearings helped reduce engine harshness (NVH).
4. Engine thermal management was first developed to its current state by Honda, who realized the importance of controlling thermal expansion from their air cooled motorcycle engines.The controlled thermal expansion characteristics of Honda engines is believed to be the major factor for their reputation in reliable long lived engines.
5. Adding an effective bypass filter to diesel trucks has been demonstrated in laboratory and fleet tests to double the time between overhauls.
6. Preventing thermal hot spots from developing in your automobile engine has been demonstrated to enhance engine and radiator longevity. Primarily this means keeping your coolant in good shape and possibly using a coolant filter. The deposits formed in cooling systems significantly degrade engine life. Obviously, if your engine overheats from deposits, it will be toast.
7. In the ancient days at GM Tech ( the 70's)they attributed 50% of engine wear to start up. I have no idea how they defined start up.
8. Oil aeration is a big cause of engine failures in small european cars run at high speeds. Likewise, high cornering loads can cause oil starvation in engines and they fail pretty quickly (LOTUS, MG,Renault, VW, Porsche 356, Ford Capri, Chevy Malibu SS, and doubtless lots of other cars I did not personally work on).
1. Fuel injection is the single biggest reason for improved engine wear we have seen today. It has been proved that most engine wear is caused by carbon particles formed from blow-by. Eliminating these particles can improve valvetrain life by a factor of five, engine bearings by a similar factor, and piston ring life is improved. The fuel injection system running a constant stoichiometric air/fuel ratio significantly reduces blow-by and the carbon particles.
2. Plateau honing of the cylinder wall has proved more important for ring life than anything else since the 60's.
3. American engine main bearing wear was greatly improved when American manufacturers discovered that a stiff crank with oversize diameter bearings helped reduce engine harshness (NVH).
4. Engine thermal management was first developed to its current state by Honda, who realized the importance of controlling thermal expansion from their air cooled motorcycle engines.The controlled thermal expansion characteristics of Honda engines is believed to be the major factor for their reputation in reliable long lived engines.
5. Adding an effective bypass filter to diesel trucks has been demonstrated in laboratory and fleet tests to double the time between overhauls.
6. Preventing thermal hot spots from developing in your automobile engine has been demonstrated to enhance engine and radiator longevity. Primarily this means keeping your coolant in good shape and possibly using a coolant filter. The deposits formed in cooling systems significantly degrade engine life. Obviously, if your engine overheats from deposits, it will be toast.
7. In the ancient days at GM Tech ( the 70's)they attributed 50% of engine wear to start up. I have no idea how they defined start up.
8. Oil aeration is a big cause of engine failures in small european cars run at high speeds. Likewise, high cornering loads can cause oil starvation in engines and they fail pretty quickly (LOTUS, MG,Renault, VW, Porsche 356, Ford Capri, Chevy Malibu SS, and doubtless lots of other cars I did not personally work on).
I'm still not buying this one. I've seen the fuel wetting that goes on in the combustion chambers of modern fuel injection engines. These were especially equipped test engines with view ports to allow high speed video. No doubt it helps, but it's not the single biggest contributor. Reliable, high power ignition systems that virtually eliminate random misfires may even trump it.
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So many "assmuptions"!
Oh no...first carocks unsupported factoids, now mori shows up to disrupt any further semblance of earnest and intelligent discourse. This thread is doomed.
MasterAcid-
Truth to be told: Mazda's venerable B3 and B6 blocks are known to provide good, extremely long service life (not uncommon in achieving 300,000kms, provided proper care and maintenance) with power output being a bit on the "conservative" side.
As the owner of a Ford Festiva (Mazda 121 EFI with B3 block) and 3 Mazda 323 of various different years/models, I must say that regardless of carbed or not, these engine blocks are surprisingly durable if not long-lasting. Although I have not performed any UOA on any of these (pre BITOG days, go figure), all of them provided faithful service life in excess of 220,000kms (with my dad's 89 EFI B6 block went beyond 260,000kms before it was totalled by a Fxxd Exploder moron).
my 2c's worth
Truth to be told: Mazda's venerable B3 and B6 blocks are known to provide good, extremely long service life (not uncommon in achieving 300,000kms, provided proper care and maintenance) with power output being a bit on the "conservative" side.
As the owner of a Ford Festiva (Mazda 121 EFI with B3 block) and 3 Mazda 323 of various different years/models, I must say that regardless of carbed or not, these engine blocks are surprisingly durable if not long-lasting. Although I have not performed any UOA on any of these (pre BITOG days, go figure), all of them provided faithful service life in excess of 220,000kms (with my dad's 89 EFI B6 block went beyond 260,000kms before it was totalled by a Fxxd Exploder moron).
my 2c's worth
quest, i also have a festiva. good to see another festi on this site.
i also had surbaru back way in the day when they were carbed and efi, and my subaru gl that i had was over 200,000 miles with a carbed engine. the same engine offered in fuel injection lasted just as long.
my uncle mike an ase certieid mechanic was telling me that decades ago at the american car dealership where he started out working, they use to machine down warped cylinders on a monster grinding slab which was basically a giant wheel and you held the head on the flat side of the wheel (not unlike a record player) and manually slid the head around untill you thought it was flat.
with practices like that, its no wonder those old american engines never lasted much over 100,000. i can only imagine how crude their bore machines and valve lapping tools were.
i also had surbaru back way in the day when they were carbed and efi, and my subaru gl that i had was over 200,000 miles with a carbed engine. the same engine offered in fuel injection lasted just as long.
my uncle mike an ase certieid mechanic was telling me that decades ago at the american car dealership where he started out working, they use to machine down warped cylinders on a monster grinding slab which was basically a giant wheel and you held the head on the flat side of the wheel (not unlike a record player) and manually slid the head around untill you thought it was flat.
with practices like that, its no wonder those old american engines never lasted much over 100,000. i can only imagine how crude their bore machines and valve lapping tools were.
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The main advantage of EFI isn't it's (necessarily) precision in fuel metering. It's its precision over the life of the vehicle. Carbs were complex and not nearly as reliable.
That would be what I would base my opinion over the reduction in wear due to fuel management. Add unleaded fuel to the mix as well.
I'd still put it very near the top of the list ..if not the #1 contributor. Naturally it works best with other elements (cooling system design to limit coolant warmup time, etc.). We've reduced multiminute high idles to 20 seconds or so.
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