yep all NAPA rotors are now communist. I have to replace the pads and rotors on the front of the focus. No point in spending an extra 40 bucks on a little thicker commi rotors.
Go cheap or expensive for rotors?
- Thread starter sciphi
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I got a pair of cheap NAPA rotors for my Neon last summer and they have survived a track day and a few autocross's without warping. OTOH the cheap rotors on the Tracker have a bad pulsation, with no abuse so maybe its just luck of the draw.
I did get 60k miles out of the China-sourced, US-machined drilled/slotted rotors on the Buick right now. That was with lots of stopping from highway speeds.
Something says I'm whipping out the wallet for the EBC slotted rotors to support a company that still makes most of its product in Britain.
Local NAPA said they never warranty a rotor. That, and the feeling that their product was the same at a higher price than other parts places.
Something says I'm whipping out the wallet for the EBC slotted rotors to support a company that still makes most of its product in Britain.
Local NAPA said they never warranty a rotor. That, and the feeling that their product was the same at a higher price than other parts places.
Darn edit feature...
Anyhow, pulled the trigger on the EBC's after deciding my money was better off in Britain's hands than China's. Racing to the bottom might kill me if I can't stop!
Anyhow, pulled the trigger on the EBC's after deciding my money was better off in Britain's hands than China's. Racing to the bottom might kill me if I can't stop!
I've got EBC ultimax slotted discs right now, they have been really good so far, about 10k right now. The best so far I think.
Along with the cheap ones I have gone through a couple sets of OE, DBA and 'performance braking?'
I have yet to wear out a pad...
Along with the cheap ones I have gone through a couple sets of OE, DBA and 'performance braking?'
I have yet to wear out a pad...
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Glad to hear there's a positive review! I'm hoping the price is justified. If these go past 60k miles before the shakes are terrible, it's worth it to have my 1.75 ton car stop on a dime. The current brakes have seen some rough handling the past 10k miles, being forced to stop at the bottom of some long hills.
These will, of course, be installed with new premium ceramic pads.
These will, of course, be installed with new premium ceramic pads.
Slotted rotors have always been my choice, for the last 10 or so years. They have the advantages of drilled, without the stress fractures that drilled rotors might create.
They're pricier, but I've rarely had to replace them. Centric owns/makes some now as well when they bought Powerslot.
I'm miffed as to why so many of the members are suggesting going cheap on braking products, yet will be willing to spend so much money on maintenance elsewhere, including fluids, gaskets, filters, and parts.
I suggest rethinking this line of thought. I've been a 'preacher' here of making sure you can STOP a vehicle before you bother STARTING one. Never take your brakes for granted.
They're pricier, but I've rarely had to replace them. Centric owns/makes some now as well when they bought Powerslot.
I'm miffed as to why so many of the members are suggesting going cheap on braking products, yet will be willing to spend so much money on maintenance elsewhere, including fluids, gaskets, filters, and parts.
I suggest rethinking this line of thought. I've been a 'preacher' here of making sure you can STOP a vehicle before you bother STARTING one. Never take your brakes for granted.
Go quality, and shop for the lowest price on well known goods.
I use top notch OE parts on my BMW but I don't go near the dealer with a 10 foot pole unless I have no choice. Find a good, online discount parts source, IMO, and comparison shop between a few when placing each order.
It so happens that going this route my brake parts are made in Germany by TUV certified manufacturers. My chosen brand (not even the most expensive of my OES choices, BTW) reportedly operates its own foundry and controls the manufacturing from ore to rotor. I've often found that when you elect to save money up front you end up paying in the end. These are brakes and I don't mess around with their performance. I wouldn't even save that much money going aftermarket.
Shop smart. Don't drop by your local auto store or dealer and buy the most expensive thing on the shelf just because. Spec what you think is "best" for you and shop around. In my case it's OE and I'm very satisfied with the deal I'm getting.
I use top notch OE parts on my BMW but I don't go near the dealer with a 10 foot pole unless I have no choice. Find a good, online discount parts source, IMO, and comparison shop between a few when placing each order.
It so happens that going this route my brake parts are made in Germany by TUV certified manufacturers. My chosen brand (not even the most expensive of my OES choices, BTW) reportedly operates its own foundry and controls the manufacturing from ore to rotor. I've often found that when you elect to save money up front you end up paying in the end. These are brakes and I don't mess around with their performance. I wouldn't even save that much money going aftermarket.
Shop smart. Don't drop by your local auto store or dealer and buy the most expensive thing on the shelf just because. Spec what you think is "best" for you and shop around. In my case it's OE and I'm very satisfied with the deal I'm getting.
Originally Posted By: stang5
how does everyone break in thier newly installed pads and/or rotors??
Drive normally for a couple hundred km and then follow a bedding procedure something like http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm
You can feel an increase in "bite" after bedding. I noticed the same thing on another car after a track development day - increased bite after actually getting the brakes properly up to temp.
I don't put too much into needing to see "blue" deposits and the like - it's easy to go too far and glaze the pads. Better to be on the conservative side than to go too far.
how does everyone break in thier newly installed pads and/or rotors??
Drive normally for a couple hundred km and then follow a bedding procedure something like http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm
You can feel an increase in "bite" after bedding. I noticed the same thing on another car after a track development day - increased bite after actually getting the brakes properly up to temp.
I don't put too much into needing to see "blue" deposits and the like - it's easy to go too far and glaze the pads. Better to be on the conservative side than to go too far.
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Yeah, and some lower temperature/oe pads may not survive some of the harsher break-in methods.
Originally Posted By: CBR.worm
Yeah, and some lower temperature/oe pads may not survive some of the harsher break-in methods.
I usually let smell be my guide since it's an indicator of brake temperature. This would automatically adjust the number of bedding runs according to the capabilities of your braking system. IMO you need to smell the brakes to bed them properly but don't feel you have to do the exact number of repetitions that someone on the Internet talking in general terms says you have to.
Remember that a couple of 40-50mph stops still would produce less heat than one 100mph panic stop since kinetic energy (which is what the brakes actually dissipate, not speed) squares with velocity. Would you ever say "Don't stop! The brakes might not survive!" to avoid a collision from 90mph? No. Every car on the road should be able to do a single panic stop from ~90mph without breaking. If yours can't, fix it or park it. (not CBR.worm specifically) Aggressive drivers in unsafe vehicles are a serious pet peeve of mine.
Yeah, and some lower temperature/oe pads may not survive some of the harsher break-in methods.
I usually let smell be my guide since it's an indicator of brake temperature. This would automatically adjust the number of bedding runs according to the capabilities of your braking system. IMO you need to smell the brakes to bed them properly but don't feel you have to do the exact number of repetitions that someone on the Internet talking in general terms says you have to.
Remember that a couple of 40-50mph stops still would produce less heat than one 100mph panic stop since kinetic energy (which is what the brakes actually dissipate, not speed) squares with velocity. Would you ever say "Don't stop! The brakes might not survive!" to avoid a collision from 90mph? No. Every car on the road should be able to do a single panic stop from ~90mph without breaking. If yours can't, fix it or park it. (not CBR.worm specifically) Aggressive drivers in unsafe vehicles are a serious pet peeve of mine.
I'm with the cheap crowd, a hunk of metal is a hunk of metal and as long as the rotor meets OEM specs it will be good, every thing else is just a window dressing.
The rotors that I bought are some unknown Chinese brand, but it has Wagner, AC Delco and some other brand (maybe Bendix, I can't remember) part numbers printed on the box. So, why should I pay more for these brands when they come from the same source?
I wouldn't mind getting something that is made in US, Canada and Germany, but that is getting harder and harder, and most of the time you can't get them locally, I don't want to mess around with orders, shipping and broker fees.
If brand names are made in China, may as well skip the middle man and get from the source.
Also I'm not going to scare myself into buying expansive rotors, I'm not a metallurgy expert but I don't see those expansive rotors disclosing some sort of better way of casting these rotors then other brands, or claiming to have fewer impurities in the raw material.
Do we have some metallurgy experts here that would confirm superiority of expansive rotors vs. OEM equivalent as far as material and casting processes are concerned?
The rotors that I bought are some unknown Chinese brand, but it has Wagner, AC Delco and some other brand (maybe Bendix, I can't remember) part numbers printed on the box. So, why should I pay more for these brands when they come from the same source?
I wouldn't mind getting something that is made in US, Canada and Germany, but that is getting harder and harder, and most of the time you can't get them locally, I don't want to mess around with orders, shipping and broker fees.
If brand names are made in China, may as well skip the middle man and get from the source.
Also I'm not going to scare myself into buying expansive rotors, I'm not a metallurgy expert but I don't see those expansive rotors disclosing some sort of better way of casting these rotors then other brands, or claiming to have fewer impurities in the raw material.
Do we have some metallurgy experts here that would confirm superiority of expansive rotors vs. OEM equivalent as far as material and casting processes are concerned?
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I'm with the cheap crowd, a hunk of metal is a hunk of metal and as long as the rotor meets OEM specs it will be good, every thing else is just a window dressing.
The rotors that I bought are some unknown Chinese brand, but it has Wagner, AC Delco and some other brand (maybe Bendix, I can't remember) part numbers printed on the box. So, why should I pay more for these brands when they come from the same source?
I wouldn't mind getting something that is made in US, Canada and Germany, but that is getting harder and harder, and most of the time you can't get them locally, I don't want to mess around with orders, shipping and broker fees.
If brand names are made in China, may as well skip the middle man and get from the source.
Also I'm not going to scare myself into buying expansive rotors, I'm not a metallurgy expert but I don't see those expansive rotors disclosing some sort of better way of casting these rotors then other brands, or claiming to have fewer impurities in the raw material.
Do we have some metallurgy experts here that would confirm superiority of expansive rotors vs. OEM equivalent as far as material and casting processes are concerned?
So what is "expensive" to you, and what is "cheap"?
I get the impression that the cheap crowd is in favour of "the cheapest aftermarket [censored] you can find" as the benchmark - not OE. In my post I'm touting OE as the "quality" solution for my vehicle anyways. Even within the OE brands of other parts, there is often a quality leader but any of them are pretty good.
If by "expensive" you mean marketing machines like Cyro, Frozen rotors, whatever... it's still all "aftermarket" to me. For me, anything aftermarket needs to be proven as truly superior (i.e. a coil-over conversion, StopTech/Brembo big brake kit etc...) to even bother with (not that I have purchased either of those examples).
I'm with the cheap crowd, a hunk of metal is a hunk of metal and as long as the rotor meets OEM specs it will be good, every thing else is just a window dressing.
The rotors that I bought are some unknown Chinese brand, but it has Wagner, AC Delco and some other brand (maybe Bendix, I can't remember) part numbers printed on the box. So, why should I pay more for these brands when they come from the same source?
I wouldn't mind getting something that is made in US, Canada and Germany, but that is getting harder and harder, and most of the time you can't get them locally, I don't want to mess around with orders, shipping and broker fees.
If brand names are made in China, may as well skip the middle man and get from the source.
Also I'm not going to scare myself into buying expansive rotors, I'm not a metallurgy expert but I don't see those expansive rotors disclosing some sort of better way of casting these rotors then other brands, or claiming to have fewer impurities in the raw material.
Do we have some metallurgy experts here that would confirm superiority of expansive rotors vs. OEM equivalent as far as material and casting processes are concerned?
So what is "expensive" to you, and what is "cheap"?
I get the impression that the cheap crowd is in favour of "the cheapest aftermarket [censored] you can find" as the benchmark - not OE. In my post I'm touting OE as the "quality" solution for my vehicle anyways. Even within the OE brands of other parts, there is often a quality leader but any of them are pretty good.
If by "expensive" you mean marketing machines like Cyro, Frozen rotors, whatever... it's still all "aftermarket" to me. For me, anything aftermarket needs to be proven as truly superior (i.e. a coil-over conversion, StopTech/Brembo big brake kit etc...) to even bother with (not that I have purchased either of those examples).
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I'll try taking some pictures of the new EBC rotors and the Chinese-made, American-finished drilled/slotted rotors on my car now.
I do have to say, surviving 60k harder miles with no appreciable wear on a car known for eating through brake rotors is a feat. Looking at my car, the pads are chewed through pretty well. With a good cleaning and wire-brushing, these rotors will go into the spares box in case something happens with the EBC's.
I will be glad to be rid of the shudder under hard braking, though!
I do have to say, surviving 60k harder miles with no appreciable wear on a car known for eating through brake rotors is a feat. Looking at my car, the pads are chewed through pretty well. With a good cleaning and wire-brushing, these rotors will go into the spares box in case something happens with the EBC's.
I will be glad to be rid of the shudder under hard braking, though!
Originally Posted By: sciphi
I'll try taking some pictures of the new EBC rotors and the Chinese-made, American-finished drilled/slotted rotors on my car now.
[...]
I will be glad to be rid of the shudder under hard braking, though!
See, that is an example of something that is unacceptable to me. I don't care how long they last if they don't work well in the first place. As another example I, personally, am not one of those folks who choose tires based solely on having the highest guaranteed mileage. They need to handle and ride well, not just last a long time and be round and black. Similarly my auto insurance needs to be there for me and pay out if I have an issue, not just give me a slip of paper that says I'm "legal".
Now, of course, I don't know your situation. Maybe your problem only developed right near the end of life etc.... I merely launched into a point-of-view based on your statement. Your statement may echo others contributing to this thread who may think performance issues are OK if they are cheap enough per mile or last a really long time.
I hope your shuddering is brakes and not ball joints or bushings.
I'll try taking some pictures of the new EBC rotors and the Chinese-made, American-finished drilled/slotted rotors on my car now.
[...]
I will be glad to be rid of the shudder under hard braking, though!
See, that is an example of something that is unacceptable to me. I don't care how long they last if they don't work well in the first place. As another example I, personally, am not one of those folks who choose tires based solely on having the highest guaranteed mileage. They need to handle and ride well, not just last a long time and be round and black. Similarly my auto insurance needs to be there for me and pay out if I have an issue, not just give me a slip of paper that says I'm "legal".
Now, of course, I don't know your situation. Maybe your problem only developed right near the end of life etc.... I merely launched into a point-of-view based on your statement. Your statement may echo others contributing to this thread who may think performance issues are OK if they are cheap enough per mile or last a really long time.
I hope your shuddering is brakes and not ball joints or bushings.
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Unfortunately it seems that many run of the mill braking systems can handle one emergency stop from highway speeds. They perform their function and need to be replaced.
A few months ago I was in a rental chevy (malibu?) in Atlanta. Traffic was moving about 85-90. I watched a pile up in front of me, looked in my mirror and hammered the brakes. I slowed down to about 15 and went around the crash. The brakes were badly warped and every stop after that felt like the car was going to shake apart. The car had 11k miles on it. That was after one fast stop.
I do track days with my car and have upgraded the pads rotors fluid and lines, I can scrub off speed from well over 100 down to 60 a few times without ruining them, but that is about the limit without going to oversize components. I have to be slow on the straights and smooth into the corners to keep from cooking my 'sporty' cars brakes.
A few months ago I was in a rental chevy (malibu?) in Atlanta. Traffic was moving about 85-90. I watched a pile up in front of me, looked in my mirror and hammered the brakes. I slowed down to about 15 and went around the crash. The brakes were badly warped and every stop after that felt like the car was going to shake apart. The car had 11k miles on it. That was after one fast stop.
I do track days with my car and have upgraded the pads rotors fluid and lines, I can scrub off speed from well over 100 down to 60 a few times without ruining them, but that is about the limit without going to oversize components. I have to be slow on the straights and smooth into the corners to keep from cooking my 'sporty' cars brakes.
Originally Posted By: CBR.worm
Unfortunately it seems that many run of the mill braking systems can handle one emergency stop from highway speeds. They perform their function and need to be replaced.
A few months ago I was in a rental chevy (malibu?) in Atlanta. Traffic was moving about 85-90. I watched a pile up in front of me, looked in my mirror and hammered the brakes. I slowed down to about 15 and went around the crash. The brakes were badly warped and every stop after that felt like the car was going to shake apart. The car had 11k miles on it. That was after one fast stop.
I do track days with my car and have upgraded the pads rotors fluid and lines, I can scrub off speed from well over 100 down to 60 a few times without ruining them, but that is about the limit without going to oversize components. I have to be slow on the straights and smooth into the corners to keep from cooking my 'sporty' cars brakes.
That's....sad, and one of the several reasons I dislike North American cars (a sweeping generalization, I know). I recall an article in print I read which quoted a senior engineering member from one of the domestic brands: "They design theirs to go 155 and we design ours for 55 - which do you think will end up better?". The same goes for stopping. Off topic, I digress...
It's worth nothing that you never know how a rental was treated. A lot of brake judder/shudder/pulsing isn't warping but deposit problems. Some may wish to read http://www.zeckhausen.com/avoiding_brake_judder.htm for some comments on that.
My "sporty" 1990 Integra could get the brakes to the point of smoke trails and not have any problems after cooling when using OE parts. I had a 1992 Porsche 968 on which I couldn't even get the brakes to smell on the street - I did repeated 75mph-10mph cycles out in the country about 15 times and gave up. On a track day there wasn't much smell but there was enough heat cycling that the brakes re-bedded and performed noticeably better for the next 6-9 months or so. On my "sporty" 1998 BMW 528 I can get them smelly after a number of stops but they've never faded or begun to vibrate on me.
While on the go I'm aware of many vehicles carrying similar or higher weight than my 528 with significantly smaller braking systems. My 5er doesn't exactly have huge brakes to begin with but it's no wonder there are issues with some of the tiny braking equipment considered "sufficient" that's rolling off of the assembly lines today.
Unfortunately it seems that many run of the mill braking systems can handle one emergency stop from highway speeds. They perform their function and need to be replaced.
A few months ago I was in a rental chevy (malibu?) in Atlanta. Traffic was moving about 85-90. I watched a pile up in front of me, looked in my mirror and hammered the brakes. I slowed down to about 15 and went around the crash. The brakes were badly warped and every stop after that felt like the car was going to shake apart. The car had 11k miles on it. That was after one fast stop.
I do track days with my car and have upgraded the pads rotors fluid and lines, I can scrub off speed from well over 100 down to 60 a few times without ruining them, but that is about the limit without going to oversize components. I have to be slow on the straights and smooth into the corners to keep from cooking my 'sporty' cars brakes.
That's....sad, and one of the several reasons I dislike North American cars (a sweeping generalization, I know). I recall an article in print I read which quoted a senior engineering member from one of the domestic brands: "They design theirs to go 155 and we design ours for 55 - which do you think will end up better?". The same goes for stopping. Off topic, I digress...
It's worth nothing that you never know how a rental was treated. A lot of brake judder/shudder/pulsing isn't warping but deposit problems. Some may wish to read http://www.zeckhausen.com/avoiding_brake_judder.htm for some comments on that.
My "sporty" 1990 Integra could get the brakes to the point of smoke trails and not have any problems after cooling when using OE parts. I had a 1992 Porsche 968 on which I couldn't even get the brakes to smell on the street - I did repeated 75mph-10mph cycles out in the country about 15 times and gave up. On a track day there wasn't much smell but there was enough heat cycling that the brakes re-bedded and performed noticeably better for the next 6-9 months or so. On my "sporty" 1998 BMW 528 I can get them smelly after a number of stops but they've never faded or begun to vibrate on me.
While on the go I'm aware of many vehicles carrying similar or higher weight than my 528 with significantly smaller braking systems. My 5er doesn't exactly have huge brakes to begin with but it's no wonder there are issues with some of the tiny braking equipment considered "sufficient" that's rolling off of the assembly lines today.
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Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Originally Posted By: sciphi
I'll try taking some pictures of the new EBC rotors and the Chinese-made, American-finished drilled/slotted rotors on my car now.
[...]
I will be glad to be rid of the shudder under hard braking, though!
See, that is an example of something that is unacceptable to me. I don't care how long they last if they don't work well in the first place. As another example I, personally, am not one of those folks who choose tires based solely on having the highest guaranteed mileage. They need to handle and ride well, not just last a long time and be round and black. Similarly my auto insurance needs to be there for me and pay out if I have an issue, not just give me a slip of paper that says I'm "legal".
Now, of course, I don't know your situation. Maybe your problem only developed right near the end of life etc.... I merely launched into a point-of-view based on your statement. Your statement may echo others contributing to this thread who may think performance issues are OK if they are cheap enough per mile or last a really long time.
I hope your shuddering is brakes and not ball joints or bushings.
Originally Posted By: sciphi
I'm starting to get shake when braking in the Buick. Most pronounced going down steep, long hills.
The shake has gotten worse since first posting. I'm tackling the brakes this week. They don't inspire confidence anymore. New AutoZone Duralast Cmax ceramic pads, the EBC rotors, new rubber lines, and new DOT3 fluid ought to make the Buick stop better.
In swapping to snow tires the other day, I saw how thin the brake pads are getting. They're still "legal", and far thinner than I'd like. Lack of heat dissipation is a very likely issue now.
Originally Posted By: sciphi
I'll try taking some pictures of the new EBC rotors and the Chinese-made, American-finished drilled/slotted rotors on my car now.
[...]
I will be glad to be rid of the shudder under hard braking, though!
See, that is an example of something that is unacceptable to me. I don't care how long they last if they don't work well in the first place. As another example I, personally, am not one of those folks who choose tires based solely on having the highest guaranteed mileage. They need to handle and ride well, not just last a long time and be round and black. Similarly my auto insurance needs to be there for me and pay out if I have an issue, not just give me a slip of paper that says I'm "legal".
Now, of course, I don't know your situation. Maybe your problem only developed right near the end of life etc.... I merely launched into a point-of-view based on your statement. Your statement may echo others contributing to this thread who may think performance issues are OK if they are cheap enough per mile or last a really long time.
I hope your shuddering is brakes and not ball joints or bushings.
Originally Posted By: sciphi
I'm starting to get shake when braking in the Buick. Most pronounced going down steep, long hills.
The shake has gotten worse since first posting. I'm tackling the brakes this week. They don't inspire confidence anymore. New AutoZone Duralast Cmax ceramic pads, the EBC rotors, new rubber lines, and new DOT3 fluid ought to make the Buick stop better.
In swapping to snow tires the other day, I saw how thin the brake pads are getting. They're still "legal", and far thinner than I'd like. Lack of heat dissipation is a very likely issue now.
Rotors dissipate the most heat (that's their primary purpose), and I'd hate to judge all car's braking systems based off a rental. But I get you
Last time I did rotors, I used the cheap-o units from O'Riley's and sold the car 90k later with the same rotors still there. I do a lot of highway driving, but they survived one set of pads and probably most of the second. I'd be hard-pressed to pay more for the expensive rotors... unless I had a hard-on for USA made goods that day.
Good pads though, are a must. If anything, buy the heavier rotor. More mass = more heat it can hold before braking performance suffers.
Last time I did rotors, I used the cheap-o units from O'Riley's and sold the car 90k later with the same rotors still there. I do a lot of highway driving, but they survived one set of pads and probably most of the second. I'd be hard-pressed to pay more for the expensive rotors... unless I had a hard-on for USA made goods that day.
Good pads though, are a must. If anything, buy the heavier rotor. More mass = more heat it can hold before braking performance suffers.
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