http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/21/news/fortune500/gm_toyota.reut/index.htm
So GM's plan to improve is to hope Toyota gets worse(?)
So GM's plan to improve is to hope Toyota gets worse(?)
GM would know, I suppose
- Thread starter Pablo
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I agree - but GM would be better served focusiing on the positives of the competion IMHO. (and learning from others mistakes)
I'm not sure that GM has the money to do better. They're struggling to keep their head above water as it is.
JHZR2
Staff member
Id have to agree though... Toyota has made some excellent vehicles, and the excellent everyday vehicles that toyota has made are better than the excellent everyday vehicles that GM has made...
Bt toyota has gotten worse, IMO... just from experience with their products. As design and buiding moved awayt from Japan, quality went south.
Honda vehicles seem to have maintained more quality, but they use IMO the cheapest rubber in the industry, so though their innovations, economy, etc. are quite good, I cant say Id ever buy one...
As things globalize more and more, things will become more consistent across the board in so many areas... some places go up as a result (think korean cars or GM from 15 years back), while others go down (think european and Japanese cars).
Its inevitable...
JMH
Bt toyota has gotten worse, IMO... just from experience with their products. As design and buiding moved awayt from Japan, quality went south.
Honda vehicles seem to have maintained more quality, but they use IMO the cheapest rubber in the industry, so though their innovations, economy, etc. are quite good, I cant say Id ever buy one...
As things globalize more and more, things will become more consistent across the board in so many areas... some places go up as a result (think korean cars or GM from 15 years back), while others go down (think european and Japanese cars).
Its inevitable...
JMH
Classic of the pot calling the kettle black. G.M. makes me laugh. The only things they do positive through the years are drop carlines and close plants.
There have been a lot of discussions on this board knocking Toyota for quality lapses in recent years. This statement from GM is only a continuation of that. From what I've been reading, I have to agree with them, too. My wife and I recently test drove several brands of minivan. The Toyota was definitely not the best product on the market. Honda had them beat hands down. We wound up buying a Buick, which has a much nicer interior IMO than the Toyota. No problems so far (knock on wood).
A friend of mine has a Lexus (the entry level one, can't remember the model). He says it's been the best car he's ever owned, and will buy another one.
The thing is, though, the tranny took a dump on him at about 110K miles, and it cost him a couple thousand to have it replaced. But if a Lexus rep were to phone him up and ask if he's satisfied with the car, he'd tell them that he was very satisfied.
I honestly don't see any huge gap in quality by any of the major auto makers. I've got a Ford Escort with about 175K on it, and the only thing maintenance-wise I've done to it was replaced the harmonic balancer when it went bad. Other than that, it's been maintenace free. The balancer repair was less than 100 dollars.
Sure the Japanese cars are good--but they really aren't any better than many models made in Detroit. The interiors of the Japanese cars look cheap (for the most part) with hard, dinky little seats and dashes that remind you of a thirty dollar boom box you'd see at K-Mart. Styling is their biggest problem--with the exception of Nissan I would say. Nissan does seem to have broken out of the utilitarian mold that most Japanese cars seem to be cast from.
Replacement parts--especially electronic parts and body panels, bumpers, and such--for the Japanese cars are OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive. We went to get a headlight switch for my father-in-law's Isuzu Trooper. About 400 dollars believe it or not. Major advantage there with domestic cars.
We choose our favorites in automobiles like we choose our favorite ball teams. And we generally stick with our loyalties, no matter how bad things get. Most of us have anecdotes to back up our choices in an automobile. It's not likely either side will be persuaded away...
Dan
The thing is, though, the tranny took a dump on him at about 110K miles, and it cost him a couple thousand to have it replaced. But if a Lexus rep were to phone him up and ask if he's satisfied with the car, he'd tell them that he was very satisfied.
I honestly don't see any huge gap in quality by any of the major auto makers. I've got a Ford Escort with about 175K on it, and the only thing maintenance-wise I've done to it was replaced the harmonic balancer when it went bad. Other than that, it's been maintenace free. The balancer repair was less than 100 dollars.
Sure the Japanese cars are good--but they really aren't any better than many models made in Detroit. The interiors of the Japanese cars look cheap (for the most part) with hard, dinky little seats and dashes that remind you of a thirty dollar boom box you'd see at K-Mart. Styling is their biggest problem--with the exception of Nissan I would say. Nissan does seem to have broken out of the utilitarian mold that most Japanese cars seem to be cast from.
Replacement parts--especially electronic parts and body panels, bumpers, and such--for the Japanese cars are OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive. We went to get a headlight switch for my father-in-law's Isuzu Trooper. About 400 dollars believe it or not. Major advantage there with domestic cars.
We choose our favorites in automobiles like we choose our favorite ball teams. And we generally stick with our loyalties, no matter how bad things get. Most of us have anecdotes to back up our choices in an automobile. It's not likely either side will be persuaded away...
Dan
Well I don't think he's that far off base. I think what he is saying, and I believe it is somewhat true, is that as Toyota is gainning market share, they are losing a bit in quality. I dont think it has anything to do with being made in the US vs Japan either. I honestly think all cars are good these days, but Toyota IMHO, is still the highest quality brand.
You wouldn't know Toyota has slipped by reading JD Powers and Consumer Reports though. Hmmm. Also, recalls aren't always bad things. They are fixing potential problems. Some of them are just small things also. My car had a recall for a fuse box cover that can come loose. Big deal. It's also important to realize that if Toyota is gain X% market share, then their X% of recalls will go up as well.
A guy at work did mention that an article in the WSJ said that with Toyota's rapid growth they are having a hard time implementing the Toyota method across the globe and that all the old school elite Toyota engineers are now at Lexus. So it's also a matter of knowledge transfer and growth rates. It will be interesting to see if Toyota can maintain the quality lead.
You wouldn't know Toyota has slipped by reading JD Powers and Consumer Reports though. Hmmm. Also, recalls aren't always bad things. They are fixing potential problems. Some of them are just small things also. My car had a recall for a fuse box cover that can come loose. Big deal. It's also important to realize that if Toyota is gain X% market share, then their X% of recalls will go up as well.
A guy at work did mention that an article in the WSJ said that with Toyota's rapid growth they are having a hard time implementing the Toyota method across the globe and that all the old school elite Toyota engineers are now at Lexus. So it's also a matter of knowledge transfer and growth rates. It will be interesting to see if Toyota can maintain the quality lead.
I have to agree. I also feel though that Honda and Toyota are still the king pins in quality. I have the 22RE engine in my 94 Toyota. They have made the engine less reliable by putting in nylon tensioners/guides on the timing chain. Mine needed to be replaced at 88K. But in 12 years a starter and timing chain ain't too bad.
I plan on a self imposed end (for me) of driving at age 70. That's 10 years. If this country is still around at that time..I think the truck will still be with me.
We bought a 2005 Sienna in 11/04. We drove Ford, Chrysler/Dodge, Honda (new and old Odyssey). For price/ options the Toyota was much better. The new Ody and New Sienna are pretty equal. Each has some points that are better then the other. Ford and Chrysler both had some nice features...but I wanted something for 7-10 years, and don't think either could do it.
I have proof that Toyota makes better vehicles in their class than FORD.
Toyotas are for munchkins...
JHZR2
Staff member
Firstly, note the past tense : "has"
I have proof that Ive had EXCELLENT results with toyotas. I have proof that my GF's family in St. Thomas (and its not them, its the general concensus) will only buy toyotas due to longevity and ability to stand up to a severe service like youve not imagined... compared to the domestic cars which don't last... yetthe beat up, high mileage toyotas get a significant resale boost over other similar vehicles. I also have proof that the quality of, say a 94 previa vs the quality of an 01 camry is significantly different.
Ill be the first to say that toyota quality has dropped... I wouldnt buy a sienna, and Id buy a used previa over a new sienna if it came to that.
Ill also be the first to say that domestic vehicles have gotten better... look at the cobalt - look at the cadillacs and buicks. Look at fullsize truck area, where trucks like the dodge ram cummins turbo diesel is more of a truck than any three foreign competitors (though this has always been the case). All manufacturers are capable of making long-lasting, gas guzzling SUVs, so there is an equality there.
Looking at day to day cars, however, I think youll be hard pressed to say that past model malibus, luminas, grand prix, taurus, intrepids, even the cirrus/stratus/breeze (which is a car that I have really liked and enjoyed for 75k now), really, truly compare to the everyday camry and accords... sales numbers certainly show that...
Similarly, I dont think anyone will argue that the everyday cavaliers, escorts and even neons were much of a competition for a corola or civic in most every area.
The tables are turning, the cobalt is decent, the corola is vanilla (except that itll give 41 mpg). The new civic looks real good, but its starting at over 14k. Ill bet that at some point, the average expected longevity of a cobalt will be equivalent to a corolla.
But in the past, Japanese and European cars were benchmarks for quality, durability and longevity... the US auto manufacturers wouldnt be in the state theyre in otherwise...
JMH
There are recalls and reacalls. My Cavalier was recalled because one of the under hood decals may have been missing or damaged.
Excellent point. I think the US auto makers do make some vehicles that are every bit as good as their Japanese counterpart. However, as you mentioned, in certain segments they are still behind....but clearly closing the gap. All cars are good today for the most part. My Toyota was built much better then my wife's Ford Focus though.
Call me hard pressed, but any of these cars are better made than any comparable Asian car. (My opinion.) Well, at least I would rather be caught dead in them, FWIW.
It just rattles my gills when somebody says something to the effect of "Well, you know American cars are junk, let's buy a Toyota!" Why? Where's the proof? Or are you just spouting off ill-informed opinion?
Japanese cars always (to me) will be nothing more than econoboxes, something you have to buy when you can't afford a real car. But it's my opinion! I don't state it as fact! American cars are no more failure prone than Japanese cars. All have their faults. But don't jump on the bandwagon unless you can back it up.
It's interesting to note that extended warranties for Toyotas cost about the same as they do for Fords. This is what my sister--who works at a Toyota dealership in the finance dept--told me. She used to work at a Ford dealership, also in the finance dept.
Her spiel (which the dealership told her to use) is something to the effect of, "Although your new Toyota is a well-built vehicle, it can still require expensive repairs after the warranty ends and in fact that parts costs are typically greater than for the domestic vehicles you may be more familiar with, making an extended warranty a good idea".
Her spiel (which the dealership told her to use) is something to the effect of, "Although your new Toyota is a well-built vehicle, it can still require expensive repairs after the warranty ends and in fact that parts costs are typically greater than for the domestic vehicles you may be more familiar with, making an extended warranty a good idea".
Styling is the biggest problem with the Japanese cars. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the only ones which don't look like all the other ones are some of the Nissans.
For every high mileage Japanese car you can name, I can name an American made car with the same number of miles--if not more--and which has been at least as trouble free.
There was a time when dino oils were believed to be vastly inferior to syns. Those capable of understanding the UOA's here and elsewhere now know that dinos are not inferior to syns when it comes to wear metal mitigation--which tells the tale of whether the engine is being protected or not.
My friend owns a very successful independent garage. He has mentioned that he sees as many problems from Japanese cars as he does from American cars. But the big difference is that parts for Japanese cars are much higher than for domestics, so it ends up costing you more money in the long run if you plan on keeping your Japanese car on the road for 200,000+ miles.
To each his own. But I agree with Rob--THE JAPANESE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES! Consumer reports and other such rating rags only rate initial quality, and customer satisfaction after a very short period (which of course doesn't figure in the high cost of import replacement parts which will inevitably be needed in the 100K+ mile cars). There is a mentality which has become ingrained in the typical Japanese car buyer's psyche that his car is better than American cars, and he'll claim satisfaction with the car even after having issues with it; he believes that an American car would certainly have been worse. He'll tell Consumer Reports or whomever that he loves his car--even though the alternator shorted out once and left him stranded in a mall parking lot. You see, that must simply have been a fluke; it's Japanese, so it's good--and an American car would certainly have done worse--so "Yes, I love my Avalon." Or whatever.
Of course there will be people who had a lemon of an American car, and then bought a jewel of a Japanese car who have made up their minds for all eternity: American bad, Japanese good. These folks tend to be the most vocal of all critics of domestic cars, and their claims typically smack of heavy embellishment.
Dan
For every high mileage Japanese car you can name, I can name an American made car with the same number of miles--if not more--and which has been at least as trouble free.
There was a time when dino oils were believed to be vastly inferior to syns. Those capable of understanding the UOA's here and elsewhere now know that dinos are not inferior to syns when it comes to wear metal mitigation--which tells the tale of whether the engine is being protected or not.
My friend owns a very successful independent garage. He has mentioned that he sees as many problems from Japanese cars as he does from American cars. But the big difference is that parts for Japanese cars are much higher than for domestics, so it ends up costing you more money in the long run if you plan on keeping your Japanese car on the road for 200,000+ miles.
To each his own. But I agree with Rob--THE JAPANESE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES! Consumer reports and other such rating rags only rate initial quality, and customer satisfaction after a very short period (which of course doesn't figure in the high cost of import replacement parts which will inevitably be needed in the 100K+ mile cars). There is a mentality which has become ingrained in the typical Japanese car buyer's psyche that his car is better than American cars, and he'll claim satisfaction with the car even after having issues with it; he believes that an American car would certainly have been worse. He'll tell Consumer Reports or whomever that he loves his car--even though the alternator shorted out once and left him stranded in a mall parking lot. You see, that must simply have been a fluke; it's Japanese, so it's good--and an American car would certainly have done worse--so "Yes, I love my Avalon." Or whatever.
Of course there will be people who had a lemon of an American car, and then bought a jewel of a Japanese car who have made up their minds for all eternity: American bad, Japanese good. These folks tend to be the most vocal of all critics of domestic cars, and their claims typically smack of heavy embellishment.
Dan
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