GM kills hydrogen fuel cell development for automotive use

[4wd]

Oh here we go again …

Yep. Some things are actually vital … and within our control …

 

[Mainia]

I remember when Honda was trying to sell the Civic GX to “regular” consumers, not just government/taxi fleets that GM/Ford/Mopar targeted with the CNG versions of the Corsica/Lumina, Taurus/Tempo/Crown Vic, Intrepid/Stratus and the “work truck” trims of the C/K trucks/F-150/Ram 1500 - Toyota sold a CNG Camry in California/Oregon/Washington for municipal fleet sales. PG&E/SoCal Gas was waving an incentive. Consumers rejected it for the hybrid version.

The only high pressure gas the layperson has experience with are scuba/paintball tanks. Gas stations didn’t want to install CNG equipment, to fuel one at home would take a long time - you need to somehow take natural gas that’s coming in at .5-1psi from your utility and turn that into 3000psi(also the same pressure a typical aluminum scuba tank is rated to at full capacity) CNG to fill the car up. There’s commercial CNG but only in major cities and truck routes.

NG comes into my 1949 1 ring Minneapolis suburb house at 10 psi to the meter and 2 psi out of the meter down to my manifold. Then down to multiple separate regulators down to .5 at a manifold distribution point. While no difference as far as your comment, just stating the utility is not feeding .5 psi.

 

[4wd]

That sounds great to me. Wonder why or by who such an easy switch over type of deal has been stopped from being phased into the vehicles in the USA? There has to be some reason that a thing like the running on propane / gasoline has not caught on in the USA?

Won’t it make less HP/L ? Oddly enough - seems there have been HP wars over the last decade … (in the USA) …

 

[4wd]

I remember when Honda was trying to sell the Civic GX to “regular” consumers, not just government/taxi fleets that GM/Ford/Mopar targeted with the CNG versions of the Corsica/Lumina, Taurus/Tempo/Crown Vic, Intrepid/Stratus and the “work truck” trims of the C/K trucks/F-150/Ram 1500 - Toyota sold a CNG Camry in California/Oregon/Washington for municipal fleet sales. PG&E/SoCal Gas was waving an incentive. Consumers rejected it for the hybrid version.

The only high pressure gas the layperson has experience with are scuba/paintball tanks. Gas stations didn’t want to install CNG equipment, to fuel one at home would take a long time - you need to somehow take natural gas that’s coming in at .5-1psi from your utility and turn that into 3000psi(also the same pressure a typical aluminum scuba tank is rated to at full capacity) CNG to fill the car up. There’s commercial CNG but only in major cities and truck routes.

The independent oil companies are running CNG here - they can fill up in the field - and a local farmers coop has CNG in town …

 

[alarmguy]

That sounds great to me. Wonder why or by who such an easy switch over type of deal has been stopped from being phased into the vehicles in the USA? There has to be some reason that a thing like the running on propane / gasoline has not caught on in the USA?

I think because gasoline is so cheap in the USA and as others point out the distribution network is robust.
They say in the EU LPG is 2 to 3 times cheaper but that places LPG costs the same as what gasoline cost here in the states.

They pay $6 to $8 USD a gallon for gasoline in the EU.
I paid $2,60 USD this week in South Carolina

Here is EU pricing
https://www.mappr.co/thematic-maps/fuel-prices-europe/

 

[4wd]

I think because gasoline is so cheap in the USA and as others point out the distribution network is robust.
They say in the EU LPG is 2 to 3 times cheaper but that places LPG costs the same as what gasoline cost here in the states.

They pay $6 to $8 USD a gallon for gasoline in the EU.
I paid $2,60 USD this week in South Carolina

Here is EU pricing
https://www.mappr.co/thematic-maps/fuel-prices-europe/

Well, then we get into the cost of each compression system - and the energy/resources to operate them safely …
Probably not a convenience store owners dream
Our coop with CNG has it off in a gravel lot (much is caged) - not the paved section near the main store …

 

[Brons2]

People are running successfully propane/LPG in Europe for at least 30-40 years now. There are propane stations everywhere - propane is sold along with gasoline at same stations. Propane is 2-3x cheaper than gasoline.

Modification to the fuel system cost about $500-1000 over there with installation and ECU tune. With modifications 2-strokes can be run on propane too.
You still keep you gasoline fuel injection and can choose to run either on gas or propane. Matter of fact you need to start always on gasoline and switch to propane right after the engine warms up. It's related to evaporator which turns the LPG from liquid to vapor before it goes in the cylinders.

The Menard's rental pickup trucks were converted to LPG back in the days (not sure how are they now) and they also were selling LPG fuel system kit for a couple of hundreds.

Here's one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154801187406

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1293209-6-2-autogas-conversion.html

Ehm, I have seen precisely zero of these stations on my recent trips to Europe, including my most recent trip where we drove the whole lenth of Spain in a Peugeot 3008.

 

[Brons2]

But if Toyota did kill off the Prius after the second or third generation and worked on its BEV successor, Tesla would have never went beyond the Roadster and Model S. But then again, if it wasn’t for the lowly Prius, there would be no Tesla. No KERS in F1(and in Ferraris). No mass-market EV adoption. Uber(in its present form), Lyft and DoorDash might not have existed. Cabbies would still be driving Crown Vics or retired cop car Chargers/Caprices. The Prius was the gateway drug into xEVs.

You need to leave California once in a while, almost zero Ubers here in Texas are Toyota hybrids.

Yes, I have seen in person how it is on the left coast where almost every Uber is a Toyota Hybrid, that doesn't mean it's that way everywhere.

 

[Brons2]

Yep. Some things are actually vital … and within our control …

$38T in debt and this is considered in our control? We are at or near record oil production in the US, let the rest of the world secure their own oil supply.

 

[UncleDave]

People are running successfully propane/LPG in Europe for at least 30-40 years now. There are propane stations everywhere - propane is sold along with gasoline at same stations. Propane is 2-3x cheaper than gasoline.

Modification to the fuel system cost about $500-1000 over there with installation and ECU tune. With modifications 2-strokes can be run on propane too.
You still keep you gasoline fuel injection and can choose to run either on gas or propane. Matter of fact you need to start always on gasoline and switch to propane right after the engine warms up. It's related to evaporator which turns the LPG from liquid to vapor before it goes in the cylinders.

The Menard's rental pickup trucks were converted to LPG back in the days (not sure how are they now) and they also were selling LPG fuel system kit for a couple of hundreds.

Here's one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154801187406

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1293209-6-2-autogas-conversion.html

Why bother with it? A forklift running indoors - ok sure.

Unless I really dont like trunk space why bother with a pressurized fuel thats 20% less energy dense than the liquid I normally run?

I still have to go somewhere other than my house to "fuel" up, and I have to do it with increased frequency.

My car (and everyone really) spends most of its time parked in my driveway, there is no more convenient place to "fill up".

 

[4wd]

$38T in debt and this is considered in our control? We are at or near record oil production in the US, let the rest of the world secure their own oil supply.

Yes, under control and vital …
Should we nationalize with the way things are run here LoL …
Maybe park the Navy fleet where you want it to be …
Hand it over to Iran ?
All you Asian car lovers understand where the LNG goes ?
Where all the massive commercial ships are built ?
IMSC now has 8 member nations - more money expected …
Cheap products from Asia ? Chip making countries etc …
Thousands of merchant ships besides tankers …
Far, far, from just oil …

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

Why bother with it? A forklift running indoors - ok sure.

Unless I really dont like trunk space why bother with a pressurized fuel thats 20% less energy dense than the liquid I normally run?

I still have to go somewhere other than my house to "fuel" up, and I have to do it with increased frequency.

My car (and everyone really) spends most of its time parked in my driveway, there is no more convenient place to "fill up".

Of course if the propane does not make sense economically or environmentally enough then it is a waste of time. It is said to have been in use in Europe over 30 to 40 years. I was not aware of this fact. Taking that into consideration now means it has had its test run seeking future applications and failed. I supposed that is enough of proof it is not workable or economically sensible for the masses as proven in Europe for those past years. I can see now why it is being used in relatively smaller applications and there is no movement to transition to it.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Yes, under control and vital …
Should we nationalize with the way things are run here LoL …
Maybe park the Navy fleet where you want it to be …
Hand it over to Iran ?
All you Asian car lovers understand where the LNG goes ?
Where all the massive commercial ships are built ?
IMSC now has 8 member nations - more money expected …
Cheap products from Asia ? Chip making countries etc …
Thousands of merchant ships besides tankers …
Far, far, from just oil …

The world runs on oil; it is a critical resource. No one, especially me, is saying patrolling the Strait of Hormuz is sole for oil, but oil is a huge part of it and a huge cost. @alarmguy mentioned the real cost of gas; this is a part of it, right? I was agreeing with him.

If you want to lower the cost of oil, find viable alternatives. Right now the world runs on oil.

 

[4wd]

The world runs on oil; it is a critical resource. No one, especially me, is saying patrolling the Strait of Hormuz is sole for oil, but oil is a huge part of it and a huge cost. @alarmguy mentioned the real cost of gas; this is a part of it, right? I was agreeing with him.

If you want to lower the cost of oil, find viable alternatives. Right now the world runs on oil.

And and it’s in way more than gas tanks - heck, even the tanks too …

 

[kschachn]

Propane has a huge advantage in that it can be liquified under pressure at ambient temperature. Hydrogen and methane cannot due to their critical point, and for a motor vehicle that is crucial.

Methane has the advantage that it just comes out of the ground and requires minimal processing for use. Propane must be synthesized. Hydrogen must be produced by decomposition of compounds since it is not found free in nature and this is a serious problem for hydrogen. Thermodynamically it is a unfavorable process, and if you are using methane in the first place, why not just combust that to start with? Decomposing water is an even more unfavorable process.

 

[4wd]

Methane has the advantage that it just comes out of the ground and requires minimal processing for use. Propane must be synthesized. Hydrogen must be produced by decomposition of compounds since it is not found free in nature and this is a serious problem for hydrogen. Thermodynamically it is an unfavorable process, and if you are using methane in the first place, why not just combust that to start with? Decomposing water is an even more unfavorable process.

Yep, around here the gas compressors run off of NG engines - but with various sized scrubbers - all in the family

 

[nthach]

You need to leave California once in a while, almost zero Ubers here in Texas are Toyota hybrids.

Yes, I have seen in person how it is on the left coast where almost every Uber is a Toyota Hybrid, that doesn't mean it's that way everywhere.

Chicago, Philly has a mix of Prii and Korean for Ubers. NYC - the Sienna hybrid, Camry Hybrid and HiHy rules for both their massive taxi fleet and Uber.

 

[alarmguy]

The world runs on oil; it is a critical resource. No one, especially me, is saying patrolling the Strait of Hormuz is sole for oil, but oil is a huge part of it and a huge cost. @alarmguy mentioned the real cost of gas; this is a part of it, right? I was agreeing with him.

If you want to lower the cost of oil, find viable alternatives. Right now the world runs on oil.

Oil is cheap, not sure why it needs to be lowered. It's at or below the inflation rate for the last 40 or 50 years. Your taxes in CA are high, not the gasoline.

You bring up the costs for national defense all the time when it comes to oil. Makes no sense at all.
It's all speculation forgetting about here the oil we export. Forgetting about alternative energy sources to generate electricity to charge electric cars and related costs. Forgetting about the rare elements we need to make BEV batteries of which our arch enemy China controls. You do know the war they are conducting against us on that right?

Forgetting about every device in your home contains materials made from oil. (Only 19 gallons of a 42 barrel of oil is used for gasoline) Meanwhile ignoring the massive costs to the US consumer to switch to BEVs. Who is going to pay for the power and grid upgrades if we ever get from 2% of the BEVs on the road right now to 40%? Who currently subsidizes the construction of power plants and grid updates?

Really now, lets look at the cost of the product at the pump or charger... and I can bet you, a BEV world of 300 million vehicles will be much more costly to the USA consumer by getting rid of oil.

By the way, the USA is one of the top 3 exporters of oil in the world. Helping to cut our insane trade imbalance. https://www.worldstopexports.com/worlds-top-oil-exports-country/


PeAcE ,,, see you later... adios ... amigo !

 

[nthach]

Propane has a huge advantage in that it can be liquified under pressure at ambient temperature. Hydrogen and methane cannot due to their critical point, and for a motor vehicle that is crucial.

Methane has the advantage that it just comes out of the ground and requires minimal processing for use. Propane must be synthesized. Hydrogen must be produced by decomposition of compounds since it is not found free in nature and this is a serious problem for hydrogen. Thermodynamically it is an unfavorable process, and if you are using methane in the first place, why not just combust that to start with? Decomposing water is an even more unfavorable process.

Methane also has an easy source of supply - landfills. And Waste Management, Republic Services and Recology use it for greenwashing but there’s a big benefit. No DEF and no DPFs to clean up(garbage trucks and transit buses don’t get anywhere hot enough to do a passive regen on-route). You can advertise your natural gas is coming from your landfills.

Propane was en vogue in Australia years ago, one of the local transit agencies ran it in their buses but found out it was lacking in power up grades. There’s some buses that still run LPG here, PG&E had a few trucks retrofitted to run it.

 

[Brons2]

Forgetting about the rare elements we need to make BEV batteries of which our arch enemy China controls. You do know the war they are conducting against us on that right?

You are aware that Chinese companies are commericializing batteries that don't require rare earths, right? Nothing preventing those from being copied in the West, and I'm sure they will be.