GM installing chargers for all EVs at dealers

[Astro14]

The best way of working is to charge whilst doing something else, meaning it adds virtually no extra time to your day. Charge in the shopping mall parking lot, at the movie theatre, at a restaurant, at home, whatever. For the significant majority of journey types this works fine. The idea that an EV can't do long haul is distorting the reality that long haul journeys by car are a significant minority of journey types. Obviously that is based on average use data - individuals will have specific needs that will inform their own decisions.

Having just completed a 2,000 mile Florida road trip (including 750 miles from Orlando to VB yesterday) - I have done just that kind of analysis- and an EV doesn’t work for me and my specific needs.

I would love one if my life included a modest commute, say the 15 miles into the Navy Base in Norfolk, that it once did. But I often drive farther than the range of an EV in a single day and I’m pressed for time on that day.

So, an EV could only be a second, local, commuter car for me. “Significant minority of journey types” applies to you, perhaps, but not me.

 

[HoosierJeeper]

No-I'm not explaining to this you because you clearly haven't read the previous threads. Have you heard of a home charger? You are not only anti EV-you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

I don't need you to explain anything, I get it. Don't flatter yourself. People charge them at home, but that doesn't work for many use cases.

It's also practically 0 if you try to charge that lovely EV that's sitting outside and it's less than 32 degrees outside... There's reasons why for such a extremely low charge rate below 32 degrees... Read up on those fun details at Cadex Battery University.... A website that is extremely educational and definitely not against batteries.

And let us all look at a map of the US and see just how vast an area of the lower 48 have average low temperatures below 32 for the months of December, January and February... It's a lot more real estate than most would think about. Even in my area of southeast Virginia we achieve that low bar. Think about that for those who live in areas where it's well colder than where I am Washington DC, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, St Louis, Harrisburg PA, Columbus Ohio, Chicago, Indianapolis, Louisville, Des Moines, Kansas City, Cleveland, Toledo, Detroit, Buffalo, Charleston WV, Hartford CT, Albany NY, Philadelphia, Boston, Augusta, Burlington VT etc etc etc etc... Leaving out Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah and Colorado which are areas where it's even well colder than places . mentioned.


And it's ZERO charging happening below -10C aka 14 degrees F. Like 0.... Nada. There's huge reason why you can't do that. Read about that on Cadex Battery University too.

This too. I'm in WI, and my vehicles spend most of the winter outside. I don't park a dirty/salty vehicle in the garage, so parking them outside overnight and during the day is normal. I don't think an EV will handle that as well. I loose maybe 2 MPG in the winter, so about 40 miles a tank, so a 13% drop. I believe EVs loose significantly more range than that in the winter, and at least with gas they still refill just as quick as in the summer!

I find it astounding that so many people can't admit the short-comings of EVs and think they are a blanket solution to every use case. Like I have said several times, EVs need to be on parity with gas vehicles for charge times, range, and be able to handle everything (and more) that gas can now. Otherwise it's a step backwards.


Another way to look at it: let's take away the gas/EV tech and just say that automakers were working on the next generation of vehicles that have a great 0-60 time, but will, at the quickest, take you 30 mins to get you 80% of your range, which your range is only 300 miles compared to 400+ on the previous model, and filling it that fast will decrease its longevity, so you should really let it refill over 6 hours. And you can't tow far, and cold weather cuts your range by 30%+ and refilling it in the cold is significantly harder and takes longer. Does that seem like progress to anyone?

 

[UncleDave]

It's also practically 0 if you try to charge that lovely EV that's sitting outside and it's less than 32 degrees outside... There's reasons why for such a extremely low charge rate below 32 degrees... Read up on those fun details at Cadex Battery University.... A website that is extremely educational and definitely not against batteries.

And let us all look at a map of the US and see just how vast an area of the lower 48 have average low temperatures below 32 for the months of December, January and February... It's a lot more real estate than most would think about. Even in my area of southeast Virginia we achieve that low bar. Think about that for those who live in areas where it's well colder than where I am Washington DC, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, St Louis, Harrisburg PA, Columbus Ohio, Chicago, Indianapolis, Louisville, Des Moines, Kansas City, Cleveland, Toledo, Detroit, Buffalo, Charleston WV, Hartford CT, Albany NY, Philadelphia, Boston, Augusta, Burlington VT etc etc etc etc... Leaving out Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah and Colorado which are areas where it's even well colder than places . mentioned.


And it's ZERO charging happening below -10C aka 14 degrees F. Like 0.... Nada. There's huge reason why you can't do that. Read about that on Cadex Battery University too.

Yeah not really. I agree cold temps are a challenge.

If you are talking about an early leaf with an air cooled battery you are absolutely right - these cars aren't that anymore.I agree the cadex battery university is chock full of information.

Almost if not all of these cars have a comprehensive battery thermal system designed to warm the battery pack for exactly that reason.

If you want to see exactly how these cars perform in the real world in cold temps - Bjorn Nyland conducts winter range and charging testing and hes in Norway.

 

[brianl703]

It's also practically 0 if you try to charge that lovely EV that's sitting outside and it's less than 32 degrees outside... There's reasons why for such a extremely low charge rate below 32 degrees... Read up on those fun details at Cadex Battery University.... A website that is extremely educational and definitely not against batteries

Ever heard of a "battery heater"?

 

[DwightFrye]

A corporate decision was made. Installing chargers nationwide (worldwide?) likely isn't the brainwork of one person.
I love how people affix blame as if they know what they are talking about. It's always so neatly bullseyed.
Ever notice how 'pat' today's arguments are? It's always boils down to just one person or just one reason....as if life's developments occur in a vacuum.

\

Mary Barra is the CEO of GM. The buck stops on her desk. I wasn't suggesting that installing chargers at GM dealerships was her idea, but rather that she green-lighted the project. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about and she's just a figurehead because GM wanted to appear "woke" and have a woman in a high position and lower level employees are actually making important decisions costing GM millions of dollars. But then again maybe I'm correct and she does bear blame. Or responsibility or whatever you want to call it.

Perhaps some industry insider will publish the story of how this project was administered. But my best guess is she is OK with it.

 

[UncleDave]

Our typical go to at Bitog for grounded info is Engineering Explained.

Jason took identical 2K mile trips in the summer and winter and details the differences in energy used, time spend charging.

Sure there are absolutely differences, but time spent charging on a long trip is deminimis.

 

[CKN]

Yeah not really. I agree cold temps are a challenge.

If you are talking about an early leaf with an air cooled battery you are absolutely right - these cars aren't that anymore.I agree the cadex battery university is chock full of information.

Almost if not all of these cars have a comprehensive battery thermal system designed to warm the battery pack for exactly that reason.

If you want to see exactly how these cars perform in the real world in cold temps - Bjorn Nyland conducts winter range and charging testing and hes in Norway.

The objections are being addressed or in some cases are completely eliminated-yet they live on the Internet. There are still those who are anti EV who are spouting things that are becoming non-issues.

The EVs are coming-they are not going away-the parity will be come close to ICE as things progress-and they have 95% less moving parts. EVs are better in EVERY WAY than ICE.

I bet the guys who had horses in front of their buggys were saying similar things......

 

[E365]

Unfortunately the ultra fast chargers can shorten battery life. And I can’t imagine GM’s prismatic cells are going to tolerate a lot of fast charges before they bloat. GM already rates the battery life at 150,000 miles. Which is half of what Tesla claims.

Tim Grewe, GM's global electrification and battery systems director says the Bolt battery can last up to 250,000 miles in the real world. There’s no “rating” that I’ve ever seen (unless you have a link?)

Furthermore, the Ultium battery lasts longer than the Bolt’s old-tech battery, won’t degrade when DC fast charged and GM isn’t recommending to limit charging to less than 100%.

The (Ultium) Hummer EV owners manual even states “The default charge level is 100% when plugged in. To set a different charge level, touch the percentage shown under Charge Level to display the Charge Level dialog.” Lyriq says the same.

The only time they suggest charging under 100% is if you’re (essentially) on a mountain, to give the battery capacity to use regenerative braking.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36877532/general-motors-ev-ultium-battery-electric-future/

 

[UncleDave]

The objections are being addressed or in some cases are completely eliminated-yet they live on the Internet. There are still those who are anti EV who are spouting things that are becoming non-issues.

The EVs are coming-they are not going away-the parity will be come close to ICE as things progress-and they have 95% less moving parts. EVs are better in EVERY WAY than ICE.

I bet the guys who had horses in front of their buggys were saying similar things......

I dont care how people "feel" about them.

I care how they actually work because the facts dont care how people feel about them.

How they work is documented and tested over and over yet poeple dont do their homework before making statements and claims about the subject, these people rarely if ever actually advance the knowledge base for readers so poeple can make informed decisions and have dialog about the differences between these products.

What is and isn't more convenient to someone is entirely their own call not any random posters.

If you do the math/ scenario and say it doesnt work for you fine.
If you choose to share that math or state demonstrably incorrect issues as your reason - and it's clearly bogus - expect to be called out on it.

 

[HoosierJeeper]

Tim Grewe, GM's global electrification and battery systems director says the Bolt battery can last up to 250,000 miles in the real world. There’s no “rating” that I’ve ever seen (unless you have a link?)

Furthermore, the Ultium battery lasts longer than the Bolt’s old-tech battery, won’t degrade when DC fast charged and GM isn’t suggesting to limit charging to less than 100%.

The (Ultium) Hummer EV owners manual even states “The default charge level is 100% when plugged in. To set a different charge level, touch the percentage shown under Charge Level to display the Charge Level dialog.” Lyriq says the same.

The only time they suggest charging under 100% is if you’re (essentially) on a mountain, to give the battery capacity to use regenerative braking.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36877532/general-motors-ev-ultium-battery-electric-future/

I just wonder how they will age over time, in addition to miles. My Liberty has 224k on it and my LR3 has 215k on it, and both get the same range as they did when new and would drive either cross country tomorrow. They are both closing in on 20 years old. How will a 20 year old EV work with 220k on it? Doesn't seem sustainable if it doesn't last as long.

 

[CKN]

I just wonder how they will age over time, in addition to miles. My Liberty has 224k on it and my LR3 has 215k on it, and both get the same range as they did when new and would drive either cross country tomorrow. They are both closing in on 20 years old. How will a 20 year old EV work with 220k on it? Doesn't seem sustainable if it doesn't last as long.

Have you been to the middle of no where Wyoming, Montana or Nevada? No way I'm driving a vehicle with over 200,000 miles on the clock in that part of the country.

 

[UncleDave]

I just wonder how they will age over time, in addition to miles. My Liberty has 224k on it and my LR3 has 215k on it, and both get the same range as they did when new and would drive either cross country tomorrow. They are both closing in on 20 years old. How will a 20 year old EV work with 220k on it? Doesn't seem sustainable if it doesn't last as long.

You dont have to wonder much because most of what you are curious about is out there.

Id suggests björn nylands website for real world first hand answers most all of your questions, as well as engineering explained.
Sandy Monroe spells out the build and operation differences between the model with hardcore teardown.

There are plenty of high mile example here out to the age of the vehicles, also plenty of repair comparisons to ice. Ive posted many here myself.

True one cant tell you how a 10 year old design will hold up 20 years - but brand doenst matter in this question. We can extrapolate though.

Like ice cars - all BEV arent created or used equally.

 

[HoosierJeeper]

Have you been to the middle of no where Wyoming, Montana or Nevada? No way I'm driving a vehicle with over 200,000 miles on the clock in that part of the country.

I have. Just because you don't drive vehicles you can trust doesn't mean I don't trust mine.

 

[alarmguy]

I dont care how people "feel" about them.

What is and isn't more convenient to someone is entirely their own call not any random posters.

Hey, we agree!
Exactly, its a personal decision to ones lifestyle, wants, needs and interests.
We all get caught up in forums trying to convince the other side of our point of view. We all might as well argue over what kind of sofa we site on when watching TV.

 

[Astro14]

Have you been to the middle of no where Wyoming, Montana or Nevada? No way I'm driving a vehicle with over 200,000 miles on the clock in that part of the country.

We’ve all heard this from you before.

However, new is not the same as reliable.

And high mileage doesn’t mean unreliable.

 

[UncleDave]

Hey, we agree!
Exactly, its a personal decision to ones lifestyle, wants, needs and interests.
We all get caught up in forums trying to convince the other side of our point of view. We all might as well argue over what kind of sofa we site on when watching TV.

We agree on more than we disagree on.

 

[CKN]

We’ve all heard this from you before.

However, new is not the same as reliable.

And high mileage doesn’t mean unreliable.

That's true. The issue is it's easy to "say something" until you have actually seen the terrain/isolation/lack of cellphone signal. Some of our friends East of the Mississippi have no clue "what the middle of nowhere" really means.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

EVs and all sorts of new innovations similar will make great sense to the world once they can be charged with something other than fossil fuel power plants. When in the master plan does that take effect? The goverments of the world can hardly encourage anyone to invest to build new refineries or just about any factories for that matter. Geothermal etc....more hydro / nuclear power along with solar etc... At this time there is not nearly enough clean energy.

 

[Astro14]

That's true. The issue is it's easy to "say something" until you have actually seen the terrain/isolation/lack of cellphone signal. Some of our friends East of the Mississippi have no clue "what the middle of nowhere" really means.

I understand - it’s the arbitrary mileage judgement to which I object.

I’ve been in the middle of nowhere. It’s why I always (and I mean always) have a blanket, hat, gloves, food, water, tools, flashlight, jumper cables, chains and a tow strap.

I’ve been stuck once, in the middle of nowhere. Southern Idaho. Back road. Had to spend the night. Long before cell phones were a thing.

Temperature near zero. Deep snow. I had misjudged and gotten stuck. Nobody could even see my car until morning.

There are places in this country where help ain’t coming anytime soon.

 

[Cujet]

Jason took identical 2K mile trips in the summer and winter and details the differences in energy used, time spend charging.

Sure there are absolutely differences, but time spent charging on a long trip is deminimis.

I did not miss your point, but instead wanted to add my experience.

While I do appreciate his videos, in many of the early EV vids, he "skews" the numbers via omission of facts. I called him out multiple times. He often ignores how much power is purchased. To my point below, the battery is HEATED when cold, and this requires more power to be purchased. ONE CANNOT USE THE DASHBOARD DISPLAY to indicate power used.

The Winter road trip was a pretty good video. But it DOES NOT represent winter ops for someone who parks outside, such as in the lot during a cold day at work. In Canada, the Model 3 we had experienced a HUGE range loss when the battery got cold. Sitting outside in the winter cold, when not "plugged in" kills capacity. Jason's car had a warm battery for maybe, 90% of his trip, maybe 100%.

Again, if you can't "plug in" when the car is in the cold for a long period of time, range suffers.

But let's not kid ourselves, range suffers in the cold on gas powered cars too. Although my Jag X-Type seems to get better MPG in the winter. Prob because I'm not running the AC.