Global Debt Time Bomb

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Oh....and when do all the government employees get their "culling". When do all the REAL unproductive workers in this country face the facts?

Soon, if not already government will be the largest employer in this country, but you contend that we are culling the unproductive....thats laughable. If the fed and every state government suffered the same losses then maybe, but as it is, only the unproductive will be left with their gubmint jobs in the end.
 
Not trying to clog up the thread, but in conjunction with the article posted, take a look at this thought-provoking commentary...

It might add to your fervor on the issue, although it may not be perfectly conceived. Very interesting nonetheless.

Quote:

A lot of people are very upset about the rapidly increasing U.S. national debt these days and they are demanding a solution. What they don't realize is that there simply is not a solution under the current U.S. financial system. It is now mathematically impossible for the U.S. government to pay off the U.S. national debt. You see, the truth is that the U.S. government now owes more dollars than actually exist. If the U.S. government went out today and took every single penny from every single American bank, business and taxpayer, they still would not be able to pay off the national debt. And if they did that, obviously American society would stop functioning because nobody would have any money to buy or sell anything.

And the U.S. government would still be massively in debt.

So why doesn't the U.S. government just fire up the printing presses and print a bunch of money to pay off the debt?

Well, for one very simple reason.

That is not the way our system works.

You see, for more dollars to enter the system, the U.S. government has to go into more debt.

The U.S. government does not issue U.S. currency - the Federal Reserve does.

The Federal Reserve is a private bank owned and operated for profit by a very powerful group of elite international bankers.

If you will pull a dollar bill out and take a look at it, you will notice that it says "Federal Reserve Note" at the top.

It belongs to the Federal Reserve.

The U.S. government cannot simply go out and create new money whenever it wants under our current system.

Instead, it must get it from the Federal Reserve.

So, when the U.S. government needs to borrow more money (which happens a lot these days) it goes over to the Federal Reserve and asks them for some more green pieces of paper called Federal Reserve Notes.

The Federal Reserve swaps these green pieces of paper for pink pieces of paper called U.S. Treasury bonds. The Federal Reserve either sells these U.S. Treasury bonds or they keep the bonds for themselves (which happens a lot these days).

So that is how the U.S. government gets more green pieces of paper called "U.S. dollars" to put into circulation. But by doing so, they get themselves into even more debt which they will owe even more interest on.

So every time the U.S. government does this, the national debt gets even bigger and the interest on that debt gets even bigger.

Are you starting to get the picture?

As you read this, the U.S. national debt is approximately 12 trillion dollars, although it is going up so rapidly that it is really hard to pin down an exact figure.

So how much money actually exists in the United States today?

Well, there are several ways to measure this.

The "M0" money supply is the total of all physical bills and currency, plus the money on hand in bank vaults and all of the deposits those banks have at reserve banks. As of mid-2009, the Federal Reserve said that this amount was about 908 billion dollars.

The "M1" money supply includes all of the currency in the "M0" money supply, along with all of the money held in checking accounts and other checkable accounts at banks, as well as all money contained in travelers' checks. According to the Federal Reserve, this totaled approximately 1.7 trillion dollars in December 2009, but not all of this money actually "exists" as we will see in a moment.

The "M2" money supply includes everything in the "M1" money supply plus most other savings accounts, money market accounts, retail money market mutual funds, and small denomination time deposits (certificates of deposit of under $100,000). According to the Federal Reserve, this totaled approximately 8.5 trillion dollars in December 2009, but once again, not all of this money actually "exists" as we will see in a moment.

The "M3" money supply includes everything in the "M2" money supply plus all other CDs (large time deposits and institutional money market mutual fund balances), deposits of eurodollars and repurchase agreements. The Federal Reserve does not keep track of M3 anymore, but according to ShadowStats.com it is currently somewhere in the neighborhood of 14 trillion dollars. But again, not all of this "money" actually "exists" either.

So why doesn't it exist?

It is because our financial system is based on something called fractional reserve banking.

When you go over to your local bank and deposit $100, they do not keep your $100 in the bank. Instead, they keep only a small fraction of your money there at the bank and they lend out the rest to someone else. Then, if that person deposits the money that was just borrowed at the same bank, that bank can loan out most of that money once again. In this way, the amount of "money" quickly gets multiplied. But in reality, only $100 actually exists. The system works because we do not all run down to the bank and demand all of our money at the same time.

According to the New York Federal Reserve Bank, fractional reserve banking can be explained this way....

"If the reserve requirement is 10%, for example, a bank that receives a $100 deposit may lend out $90 of that deposit. If the borrower then writes a check to someone who deposits the $90, the bank receiving that deposit can lend out $81. As the process continues, the banking system can expand the initial deposit of $100 into a maximum of $1,000 of money ($100+$90+81+$72.90+...=$1,000)."

So much of the "money" out there today is basically made up out of thin air.

In fact, most banks have no reserve requirements at all on savings deposits, CDs and certain kinds of money market accounts. Primarily, reserve requirements apply only to "transactions deposits" – essentially checking accounts.

The truth is that banks are freer today to dramatically "multiply" the amounts deposited with them than ever before. But all of this "multiplied" money is only on paper - it doesn't actually exist.

The point is that the broadest measures of the money supply (M2 and M3) vastly overstate how much "real money" actually exists in the system.

So if the U.S. government went out today and demanded every single dollar from all banks, businesses and individuals in the United States it would not be able to collect 14 trillion dollars (M3) or even 8.5 trillion dollars (M2) because those amounts are based on fractional reserve banking.

So the bottom line is this....

#1) If all money owned by all American banks, businesses and individuals was gathered up today and sent to the U.S. government, there would not be enough to pay off the U.S. national debt.

#2) The only way to create more money is to go into even more debt which makes the problem even worse.

You see, this is what the whole Federal Reserve System was designed to do. It was designed to slowly drain the massive wealth of the American people and transfer it to the elite international bankers.

It is a game that is designed so that the U.S. government cannot win. As soon as they create more money by borrowing it, the U.S. government owes more than what was created because of interest.

If you owe more money than ever was created you can never pay it back.

That means perpetual debt for as long as the system exists.

It is a system designed to force the U.S. government into ever-increasing amounts of debt because there is no escape.

Of course if we had listened to our very wise founding father Thomas Jefferson, we could have avoided this colossal mess in the first place....

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

But we didn't listen, did we?

We could solve this problem by shutting down the Federal Reserve and restoring the power to issue U.S. currency to the U.S. Congress (which is what the U.S. Constitution calls for). But the politicians in Washington D.C. are not about to do that.

So unless you are willing to fundamentally change the current system, you might as well quit complaining about the U.S. national debt because it is now mathematically impossible to pay it off.
 
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Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Oh....and when do all the government employees get their "culling". When do all the REAL unproductive workers in this country face the facts?

Soon, if not already government will be the largest employer in this country, but you contend that we are culling the unproductive....thats laughable. If the fed and every state government suffered the same losses then maybe, but as it is, only the unproductive will be left with their gubmint jobs in the end.


Again, I do not whine about what I cannot control. I take care of myself and don't worry about others not being on the same playing field, it is effort that I can put towards my own self determination and I plan on being successful.
I do see fallacy in your assertion that the goverment employees are not to be affected. But local goverments are already taking cuts. My city is cutting employees, The state is cutting employees, The state of Texas has cut employees and funding in areas. The federal goverment will hopefully shrink as we get out of war and deactivate many reservist.
THe post office is in shambles as any "job for life" type institution should be. I adjust, I Use Fed Ex, they provide a service that I need. I am not angry at the post office, but fear of angry postal workers keeps me out of their building.;)
 
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Man do you misread me and my comments. This isn't about me or any bitterness aimed at hoping for a level playing field. This is about bad policies selling my grandchildrens legacy down the toilet.

You need to stop thinking about the present and your own personal "thing" and start worrying about the future and what it holds for your offspring. This isn't about you and I, we have used up the countries vast resources/wealth and what are we leaving behind?
 
THe best way to prepare the next generation to succeed is by raising them in tough times. (ex great depression leads to a great generation) By growing up in such a rich country the children of this nation are not well prepared to compete with chidren who want to get out of poverty from other nations.
Teach them to work, that is the best legacy.
 
Thomas Jefferson certainly held nothing but disdain for centralized banking, but there is no credible evidence that he ever said or wrote this:

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

About the commercial real estate thing: there have always been bad bankers, bad business people, and speculators, and there always will be.

There are plenty of conservative business people that can't wait to buy real estate for 50 cents on the dollar, it's just not very exciting or interesting to read about them.

And when that overbuilt empty real estate gets priced cheap enough, somebody will buy it, they'll be able to rent it cheap because they bought it cheap, somebody will rent it if its cheap enough, and another business will be up and running. This is how stuff resets. Putting it off is futile, it needs to happen and it will happen.

The government debt is a different problem. Article I, sections 8 and 9 of the Constitution, as amended, were put there for a reason. The only way to get the spending monster back under control is to insist that pols and federal judges adhere to the constitution.

If they had, we wouldn't be in this mess.
 
LOL


So in your estimation, a good long recession is a good thing for the youth of our nation? FWIW the great depression only created a great generation because of a little thing called WWII. Do you further propose that a good long world wide war is good for the youth of our country?

Maybe we should all just chuck it and live in grass huts. I'm sure that would be good for our children. Or maybe we can just go back to an agrarian economy, being raised on a farm does have its benefits.
 
Originally Posted By: Win
The only way to get the spending monster back under control is to insist that pols and federal judges adhere to the constitution.

If they had, we wouldn't be in this mess.


Exactly.
People will argue 100 different resolutions around a problem, but often never locate the root source.
This is it 9 times out of 10.
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
LOL


So in your estimation, a good long recession is a good thing for the youth of our nation? FWIW the great depression only created a great generation because of a little thing called WWII. Do you further propose that a good long world wide war is good for the youth of our country?

Maybe we should all just chuck it and live in grass huts. I'm sure that would be good for our children. Or maybe we can just go back to an agrarian economy, being raised on a farm does have its benefits.


I'm not taking sides, but I think what he means is summed up in this cliche:

"Necessity is the mother of all invention."

When times require something spectacular, those people shine. When everything is going well and we take it for granted, people like the Japanese and Chinese use it to their advantage. It has just been human nature to let off the accelerator when you are "winning the race", but, as well all can tell, the truth lies in long-term perception, not short-term pleasure.
 
I am not proposing any of the great leaps you just made(grass husts, war). I am simply stating that due to hard times and learning to make due the depression era children learned to save and not spend what they didn't have. They learned the value and the difference between neccessities and luxuries.
I am saying I want soup lines (they are already here). It would greatly benefit me if everyone was spending like it was a few short years ago as it would drive up energy prices and my income is to some extent proportional to that.
It would benefit the nation more if the youth did not have it all. THey are coddled to much. It is a belief that they deserve to be successful. That is a privelidged attittude. They only deserve the oppurtunnity to make themselves. AS a non parent I can coldly and objectively state that. Parents are incumbered by their love for their children and the desire to protect them from the harshness that the future holds for them.
 
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
It is a belief that they deserve to be successful.


You are right.
Unfortunately, there are more than just some youth who believe they deserve something for little/nothing.

Look at our society.
Look at our politicians.
Look at our President.

Whew...
 
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Our youth, for the most part are smarter than you realize.

They are angry and they are bitter, and I don't blame them one bit. They see what we squandered away. They understand what could have been instead of what is. When you consider they face the prospect of competing with a world work force willing to work at slave wages and our government sees no problem with that. When you consider that they understand they are the ones who will have to pay 80% of their wages to cover SSI. When you consider they are the first generation to have an expected lower standard of living than the previous generation...it goes on and on.

Look I'm older, I wont feel the price to be paid for the follies of our "leaders". They will. Instead of making excuses and talking about how adversity can be good for people. Be honest and just admit our generation and the previous one blew it. We killed the golden goose with complaceny and a "not in my backyard" type mentality. Protecting our own little fiefdoms while the country as a whole took a dive. It's not the "spoiled brats" that are the problem. It's us and our recent past that have dropped the ball.
 
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Originally Posted By: BeanCounter
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
LOL


So in your estimation, a good long recession is a good thing for the youth of our nation? FWIW the great depression only created a great generation because of a little thing called WWII. Do you further propose that a good long world wide war is good for the youth of our country?

Maybe we should all just chuck it and live in grass huts. I'm sure that would be good for our children. Or maybe we can just go back to an agrarian economy, being raised on a farm does have its benefits.


I'm not taking sides, but I think what he means is summed up in this cliche:

"Necessity is the mother of all invention."

When times require something spectacular, those people shine. When everything is going well and we take it for granted, people like the Japanese and Chinese use it to their advantage. It has just been human nature to let off the accelerator when you are "winning the race", but, as well all can tell, the truth lies in long-term perception, not short-term pleasure.


Agreed, but the way I see it. The depression wasn't the neccessity, WWII was. So in essence you and he are arguing that a good long widespread war is what this country needs and further he proposes that in the end our youth will be better off because of it.

You cant seperate the great depression and our emergence from it without including WWII as a major factor in that rebuilding. The great depression could have gone on for any number of years without the growth stimulated by WWII.
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Our youth, for the most part are smarter than you realize.

They are angry and they are bitter, and I don't blame them one bit. They see what we squandered away. They understand what could have been instead of what is. When you consider they face the prospect of competing with a world work force willing to work at slave wages and our government sees no problem with that. When you consider that they understand they are the ones who will have to pay 80% of their wages to cover SSI. When you consider they are the first generation to have an expected lower standard of living than the previous generation...it goes on and on.

Look I'm older, I wont feel the price to be paid for the follies of our "leaders". They will. Instead of making excuses and talking about how adversity can be good for people. Be honest and just admit our generation and the previous one blew it. We killed the golden goose with complaceny and a "not in my backyard" type mentality. Protecting our own little fiefdoms while the country as a whole took a dive. It's not the "spoiled brats" that are the problem. It's us and our recent past that have dropped the ball.


Very true.

Most people I know in this generation (most is the keyword here, there are always exceptions) knows that jobs don't come easy and they work they butt off to get into good schools, good internships, and instead of joining a fraternity in college and go to the beach during summer, it is internship or summer school time to get ahead. All because, well, a diploma doesn't mean squat nowadays.

But, if you look at the macroscopic level, you'll see that the golden goose is gone and the remaining people are just playing musical chairs. Sometimes it is the older generation that loss out in layoffs, sometimes the entire job function is off shored, because no matter how good you are, they are 5/6 cheaper than you.

I see hyper inflation on the horizon not only because of national debt, but because that's the only way we can level the playing field when our standard of living is disproportional to how much our workforce is worth when compare to other nations. They are just too darn affordable to refuse for the employers.

Automation and transportation cost may slow this down a little bit, but the only balance will come when their standard of living is high enough, and our standard of living is low enough. Who knows, maybe by that time people will outsource to Haiti or Africa if politics stabilized instead of coming back to the US.
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Our youth, for the most part are smarter than you realize.

They are angry and they are bitter, and I don't blame them one bit. They see what we squandered away. They understand what could have been instead of what is. When you consider they face the prospect of competing with a world work force willing to work at slave wages and our government sees no problem with that. When you consider that they understand they are the ones who will have to pay 80% of their wages to cover SSI. When you consider they are the first generation to have an expected lower standard of living than the previous generation...it goes on and on.

Look I'm older, I wont feel the price to be paid for the follies of our "leaders". They will. Instead of making excuses and talking about how adversity can be good for people. Be honest and just admit our generation and the previous one blew it. We killed the golden goose with complaceny and a "not in my backyard" type mentality. Protecting our own little fiefdoms while the country as a whole took a dive. It's not the "spoiled brats" that are the problem. It's us and our recent past that have dropped the ball.


Depending on what your definition of "youth" is, I may be lumped into today's generation.
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: BeanCounter
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Our youth, for the most part are smarter than you realize.

They are angry and they are bitter, and I don't blame them one bit. They see what we squandered away. They understand what could have been instead of what is. When you consider they face the prospect of competing with a world work force willing to work at slave wages and our government sees no problem with that. When you consider that they understand they are the ones who will have to pay 80% of their wages to cover SSI. When you consider they are the first generation to have an expected lower standard of living than the previous generation...it goes on and on.

Look I'm older, I wont feel the price to be paid for the follies of our "leaders". They will. Instead of making excuses and talking about how adversity can be good for people. Be honest and just admit our generation and the previous one blew it. We killed the golden goose with complaceny and a "not in my backyard" type mentality. Protecting our own little fiefdoms while the country as a whole took a dive. It's not the "spoiled brats" that are the problem. It's us and our recent past that have dropped the ball.


Depending on what your definition of "youth" is, I may be lumped into today's generation.
grin2.gif



Ture, What is defined as Youth? I have been trying to push babyboomers out of my way my entire career. Each generation has their own unique challenges.
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
LOL


So in your estimation, a good long recession is a good thing for the youth of our nation?



Recessions were our friend. They realigned things that were over extended. This last evolution was a false mask over a recession that was due about 2002+/- ...maybe earlier. Things would have been on a downturn anyway, but would not have been SO DEEP. It was this false protracted unsustainable party that put us in this mess. Any fool will realize that you can't fund a short term economy with 30 year money. You end up running out of borrowers.

Quote:
FWIW the great depression only created a great generation because of a little thing called WWII.


No. That amassed wealth in the USA due to it being the only intact post wartime economy. It didn't make the people who managed their money well from the experience of having none for a good chunk of their formative years. Most of that wealth was in the form of public works and defense spending ..moon missions ..the Cold War ...the federal highway net. Trade laws and really high upper tax rates kept the stuff in recycle mode. That was all gone by about 1973 when those inhibitors were eliminated.
Quote:

Maybe we should all just chuck it and live in grass huts. I'm sure that would be good for our children. Or maybe we can just go back to an agrarian economy, being raised on a farm does have its benefits.


I think if I could move to a Pacific island and sit on the beach all day ..fish as needed when low hanging fruit wasn't around ...I'd do just that. An occasional tsunami or tribute to the local volcano wouldn't be that high a price to pay.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

I think if I could move to a Pacific island and sit on the beach all day ..fish as needed when low hanging fruit wasn't around ...I'd do just that. An occasional tsunami or tribute to the local volcano wouldn't be that high a price to pay.


Until you need medical help....
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I'll seek out the local witch doctor.

But what if it takes more than someone chanting "ooh, eeh, ooh-ah-ah; ting-tang, walla-walla bing-bang!" to cure what ails you?
 
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