German Castrol 5,502 Miles 2009 Ford Expedition

[Pablo]

Lucas Fuel Treatment has Sn and Pb as an additive? I did not know this. Did someone do an analysis? Have a link?

Seems odd. No Sn/Pb in the bearings, but shows in a UOA - no fuel treatments in any of the other OCIs?

 

[redrocker55]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Lucas Fuel Treatment has Sn and Pb as an additive? I did not know this. Did someone do an analysis? Have a link?

Seems odd. No Sn/Pb in the bearings, but shows in a UOA - no fuel treatments in any of the other OCIs?


Great question...this was the only OCI where I added a fuel additive.

 

[Jim 5]

I think overk1ll makes a pretty compelling and persuasive case here.

I for one am buying it when it comes to lead. I still suspect silicon plus tin and iron adds up to potential sandblasting of the intake valves and cylinder linings. The numbers aren't too high though.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: tinmanSC
Yup. The fuel treatment calls all of these numbers into question. The UOA after a fuel treatment gives all kings of wacky results. In fact, the Lucas brand fuel treatment specifically has lead in it. The guy that posted a similar UOA about a year go called Lucas about this and they swore up and down that it didn't have lead it in. But this has been reported in more than a few UOAs and has sent people running for cover thinking something was wrong when it fact it was just a Lucas fuel treatment. The UOA doesn't lie. It has lead.


So where did the tin (Sn) come from?

Can we have just shred of confirmation on the above about the lead (Pb) please. Not too much to ask.

 

[SubLGT]

If you still have some of the original GC and Lucas FT you used for this OCI, spike a quantity of the GC with the Lucas FT ( at probably 1-5% final concentration) and send the mix out for analysis.

 

[IanInCalgary]

I’ll leave others to discuss the analysis results.

My comment is a recommendation to confirm which gear is best for your towing conditions when towing for more than a few miles. Hold a steady throttle and shift between gears. The gear that results in the highest speed is the best gear to use for those towing conditions. It is uncommon for the highest gear to be suitable for heavy-duty towing in a gasoline-powered tow vehicle. Based on your description of conditions 5th gear would be as high as you could use, it may be necessary to drop to 4th. The engine will run cooler when using the optimum gear. If the transmission was shifting between 5th and 6th throughout the trip it is likely the torque converter clutch wasn’t locked up very much which results in a lot of heat.

When towing in heavy-duty conditions, the engine will provide the best fuel economy and lowest operating temperature when run near the torque peak.

Ian

 

[Jim 5]

Originally Posted By: IanInCalgary
I’ll leave others to discuss the analysis results.

My comment is a recommendation to confirm which gear is best for your towing conditions when towing for more than a few miles. Hold a steady throttle and shift between gears. The gear that results in the highest speed is the best gear to use for those towing conditions. It is uncommon for the highest gear to be suitable for heavy-duty towing in a gasoline-powered tow vehicle. Based on your description of conditions 5th gear would be as high as you could use, it may be necessary to drop to 4th. The engine will run cooler when using the optimum gear. If the transmission was shifting between 5th and 6th throughout the trip it is likely the torque converter clutch wasn’t locked up very much which results in a lot of heat.

When towing in heavy-duty conditions, the engine will provide the best fuel economy and lowest operating temperature when run near the torque peak.

Ian


Must be able to find a dyno chart online that would tell you where the peak torque is. This way you wouldn't have to go by the seat of the pants, which is sometimes more difficult than one would think.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Very good points. Unfortunately, 2GR-FE engine in my Toyota has peak torque at 4700 RPM. I'm not going to go that far.

 

[IanInCalgary]

I didn’t mean to scare people away from determining which gear is best for the towing conditions.

I should clarify a few things:
- I assumed shifting gears with an automatic transmission – this makes it fairly easy to keep the gas pedal in the same position.
- You want the engine near the torque peak (lb-ft not RPM) which could be a considerably slower engine speed than at peak torque.
- Using the method I described will provide good feedback within a few seconds of changing gears – once the torque converter clutch has done its thing after shifting to the new gear the vehicle speed will either change noticeably or not. If it doesn’t change noticeably then either gear is good.
- This method indicates the best gear for the “current” conditions. The OP may have been better off in 4th gear on the outbound portion of his trip, and 6th gear on the return portion since he would have had a strong tailwind on the trip home.

Ian

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: IanInCalgary

- You want the engine near the torque peak (lb-ft not RPM) which could be a considerably slower engine speed than at peak torque.


You lost me here. What is torque peak vs. peak torque?

 

[IanInCalgary]

Sorry for the confusion , FJ. Torque peak and peak torque can be used interchangeably in this instance – I was sloppy to not keep the term consistent.

When an engine is under heavy load, such as towing, you want the engine to operate at a speed at which it’ll develop close to its maximum torque. Some engines have a fairly broad power band which means the torque rises quickly (as the engine RPM increases) and stays high for a significant portion of the rev range. This is a desirable characteristic for an engine used in a towing application since it provides more flexibility in what gear to use.

Ian

 

[redrocker55]

Originally Posted By: IanInCalgary
I’ll leave others to discuss the analysis results.

My comment is a recommendation to confirm which gear is best for your towing conditions when towing for more than a few miles. Hold a steady throttle and shift between gears. The gear that results in the highest speed is the best gear to use for those towing conditions. It is uncommon for the highest gear to be suitable for heavy-duty towing in a gasoline-powered tow vehicle. Based on your description of conditions 5th gear would be as high as you could use, it may be necessary to drop to 4th. The engine will run cooler when using the optimum gear. If the transmission was shifting between 5th and 6th throughout the trip it is likely the torque converter clutch wasn’t locked up very much which results in a lot of heat.

When towing in heavy-duty conditions, the engine will provide the best fuel economy and lowest operating temperature when run near the torque peak.

Ian


Thank you to those who have provided good advice and suggestions on this UOA. VERY VERY much appreciated!!!

Now that this thread is sufficiently off topic I will comment on my towing skills.

The transmission in my Ford Expedition does NOT allow the ability to choose which gear you tow in. You can choose 1, 2, 3 or D. That's first gear, second gear, third gear and then Drive. Drive means the transmission will choose which gear it believes is the best for whatever conditions the vehicle is operating in.

This vehicle is based on one of the best selling work trucks in the world. It is designed to tow. Designed to work hard. The transmission comes with a tow setting and that was experimented with during the trip when I towed. The transmission and engine were much happier and much less shifting between 6th and 5th when I was in the 'tow' mode. So I left it in tow mode.

The torque peak on my engine is at 3,600 RPM's. Which is approximately 65% of redline.

 

[tinmanSC]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I like your flow of logic here. The part about IN FACT the Lucas has lead in it because someone posted bad UOA. Cause and effect are really obvious here.

If you are going to make a rude, sarcastic post, at least make it an informative one. There are ways of saying this without being rude. For example, lets see Pablo's post:
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Lucas Fuel Treatment has Sn and Pb as an additive? I did not know this. Did someone do an analysis? Have a link?

I have not seen an analysis of the treatment itself. I've seen a few UOAs with lead that is totally out of line where Lucas treatment is mentioned. I know I have. I did some searching and I found my post talking about how it'd seen them, this was around 9/2010. I'll so some more searching after dinner. I remember it seemed very odd that some of the UOA's had lead out of line but everything else seemed ok which made me look up Lucas Fuel Treatment. As I recall, it was specifically made for engines that required leaded fuel (Stated here: http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=26&catid=8&loc=show )which drew my attention to other UOAs with high lead. I really did research this last September! Honest! I will do my best to find my evidence. Gimme a day or two.

 

[cchase]

I have read on here that first runs of GC often produce higher lead numbers. Might be worth searching threads to see if there is a trend with respect to lead numbers.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Sorry to hurt your sensitive feelings by a bit of sarcasm.

There is a recent topic of elevated chromium and lead after seafoam treatment. Do you think Seafoam had chromium and lead in it? Now, this is not sarcasm, just the Socratic method.

 

[xnighter]

Just because Lead and Tin show up when Lucas is used, does not mean Lucus has Lead and Tin, especially as a pair. It is unlikely that just by chance Lucas happened to have both lead and tin. On the other hand we know very well that quite a few components in the engine have those two metals as a pair. So the logical thing would be is to assume that Lucas does something to those components to start shedding lead and tin. Besides, their MSDS sais "no Hazardous Substances" and isn't lead a hazardous substabce? When Lucus says there is no lead, i tend to believe them.

 

[addyguy]

But if there is NO LEAD in the parts used in the engine...where does the lead come from???

Or are you saying that the Lucas is 'creating lead' in the engine?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: xnighter
Just because Lead and Tin show up when Lucas is used, does not mean Lucus has Lead and Tin, especially as a pair. It is unlikely that just by chance Lucas happened to have both lead and tin. On the other hand we know very well that quite a few components in the engine have those two metals as a pair. So the logical thing would be is to assume that Lucas does something to those components to start shedding lead and tin. Besides, their MSDS sais "no Hazardous Substances" and isn't lead a hazardous substabce? When Lucus says there is no lead, i tend to believe them.



You appear to have missed my posts, including the one with pictures, indicating that this engine has aluminum/silicon bimetal bearings in it that have NO LEAD OR TIN IN THEM.

 

[Pablo]

So there are no other bushings in the engine at all?

 

[xnighter]

no no i have read your post and i have seen the pictures, but lead and tin does not have to come from bearings. Lead and tin could come from bushings or thrust washers, which do have lead and tin as a pair. Don't forget this Lucas additive has cleaning properties, so it is only normal that it will be mildly corrosive to any parts that have lead in them. And then Lucas company HAVE to declare lead in MSDS. Obviously never you nor me know for sure, but if i had to bet led and tin do not come from Lucas additive, lead and tin come from some parts in engine.