Genesis Coupe/ 5k miles GC 0w30/ 16,500 miles

[nooner]

Big fan of this site, I learned a ton from reading the non-forum site, and the forum alike.

I am curious as to what the guru's have to say about this UAO. It is my first one ever.

I drive a 2010 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 2.0T. I drive it pretty hard and I am pushing almost twice the stock hp.

I use German Castrol 0w30 with OEM oil filter and AEM dryflow air fitler.

From what I have learned, I will tell you what I see. Hopefully those smarter than I can add to or fix what I say that is wrong.

I am looking to extent to 7.5k miles if it is safe.

First I will say I collected the sample about 3 seconds after the oil was draining on my car after a 10 mile drive so it was plenty hot.

From looking at the VOA, my visc@100 looks like is went from 11.6 to 9.8 which is still a 30 weight so that is good.

The VOA TBN was 11 and it droped to 5.1. So I think I have some life left on it, though is 7.5k pushing it, should I just go to 6k OCIs or 6.5k?

Looks like I have a good oil and air filter, seems contaminent free/normal.

I know one big issue is fuel in the oil which another Coupe I know of had the same issue but worse (he was
The nitration level looks a bit high, they say the high side or normal. Could this lead to sludge or should I worry about it? What causes this, or is it just from running the oil that long?

The oxidation looks like the low side or normal, but is it possible to have that at 0, or something I should monitor/be concerned about as well?



Code:


OIL GC0w30

MILES IN USE 4916

MILES 16416

SAMPLE TAKEN 3/21/11



ALUMINUM 3

CHROMIUM 0

IRON 13

COPPER 2

LEAD 0

TIN 0

MOLYBDENUM 26

NICKEL 0

MANGANESE 0

SILVER 0

TITANIUM 0

POTASSIUM 0

BORON 15

SILICON 12

SODIUM 3

CALCIUM 1755

MAGNESIUM 383

PHOSPHORUS 762

ZINC 855

BARIUM 0

ANTIMONY 1



WATER INFARED
FUEL 2.8%

VIS 100*CSC 9.8

TBN 5.1



I-R OXIDATION 9

I-R NITRATION 22


I appreciate your time of reading all/any of this and offering your advice/insight.

 

[Lethal1ty17]

a 10 mile drive isnt long enough to get the oil hot enough (for long enough) to burn off some of the moisture and fuel, but thats ok. your tune can cause fuel dilution, cold starts, cold idling, short trips, etc, you do the math. bump up to a 40wt next time and see if you get any improved wear numbers, if not, go back to a 30wt. at least thats what i would do.

 

[d00df00d]

to BITOG!

What lab did the UOA? Do you know what method (ICP, RDE, RFS) they used to get the wear metals numbers?

 

[nooner]

Thanks, I used Oil Analysers Inc. I have know clue what ICP, RDE, RFS means/referrs to.

I drove a mile at 5krpm to try to get it hot and drove at ~20psi for 3-6th gear pull. Then let it cool for the last 5 miles. do you still think that wasn't enough? 3 Days prior to this, I had a 1.5 hour drive, so I wouldn't imagine all of that fuel is from those 3 days?

Would you recommend staying at a 5k OCI or do you think from the numbers you see, think I could extend it a bit, and if so how far?

 

[Brons2]

I think at 16,500 miles, you are still breaking it in. I think this is a fine report and I would think 7500 is reachable. Maybe split the difference next OCI to 6250 and if that works out OK, go to 7500.

 

[dtt004]

Hi.

I usually never see I-R oxidation and nitration on oil samples, but here is what they mean.

An oxidation reaction, in this context, is the formation of acids and related to the overall protonation of the oil solution. As you know, combustion products form acidic solutions in the oil, effectively increasing hydrogen ion concentration and lowering the pH. Some of the prevalent strong acids in solution after combustion are sulfuric H2SO4 and nitric HNO3 acids. Oxidation is the "reduction of electrons." To clarify, electrons are negatively charged. Hydrogen atoms are positively charged. In a solution at equilibrium, there is no charge because the species are neutral and positive charges balance the negative charges.

So what happens when you lose electrons? The hydrogen ion concentration increases. This causes a reduction in pH. It will be acidic. I use hydrogen here to simplify things. Sulfuric and nitric acids are strong acids, and completely dissociate in solution. Their anions are neutral, so we forget about them. The cation, H+, is the contributor to acidity.

The opposite is true for reduction rxns.

Nitration deals with nitro groups attacking the benzene rings in solution. A byproduct of combustion are nitro groups (that's why we have emissions related problems with oxides of nitrogen). Oil is composed of benzene rings and other things. When they come together, and with the other impurities in solution, we get a major contributor to engine varnish ...and sludge.

So, the higher the oxidation, the more acidic the solution. The higher the nitration, the lower the oil's ability to neutralize impurities.

 

[JOD]

Welcome to the forum, and nice ride you have there!

Personally, I would not run the oil for any longer with these same driving habits. During warmer temps, with some longer drives and fewer short trips (if you're like most people all of the above apply during the spring/summer months), then I'd have no problem extending it out to 7.5K.

The wear metals look fine, taking into account the limited value of single pass UOA wear metals expressed in PPM. I'd be a little concerned about the fuel eating the oil, however. I used GC in a heavily boosted V70R and I never saw it shear down below 11, and I never had that much fuel in the oil. My sampling technique was very similar to yours, maybe an additional 10 minutes of driving (I think you got the oil hot enough, personally).

Your driving habits over the winter, and the tune probably have something to do with the fuel in the oil, but it (or something else) is definitely causing the oil to shear more than normal--and this isn't an oil prone to shearing. That's my $.02.

On a positive note, it looks like the AEM filter is doing a good job.

 

[nooner]

Ok thanks for the explanation dtt, that will take a time or 10 to read over and sink in/understand all that lol.

Basically you are saying it is easier to make sludge the higher the nitrate is? But due to the higher levels of detergents I had in the oil, the sludge shouldn't be an issue?

OAinc gave the nitrate a 1 ) 0-1 normal 2-3 abnormal and 4 critical. Though I don't really know what that means tangibly. This doesn't mean I have sludge it just means it is more likely/easier to form? Am I right on that? The oxidation was a 0.


Apparently you can't edit post on this site after you close the page? Kind of annoying since I like to read over and fix typos, but I guess I will just have to proof read better. Though that first opst where I said the other GC driver got
Thanks JOD for sharing your experience with the GC.

 

[dtt004]

Hi.

Yes and no. Hmmmm, sorry I realize I kind of went overboard with that. What I mean is that, with a higher nitration number, we have more "nitration reactions" occurring. To simplify it, a nitration reaction causes that varnish (as a result of the surface of the metal reacting with the oil) and eventually, will cause sludge. So more nitration reactions mean more sludge.

Oxidation number is an indicator of how many oxidation reactions are occurring. Think of oxidation reaction as causing acid buildup. That is why oils have a TBN, or total base number, and a TAN, or total acid number. Acids only react with bases and vice versa. Inside the engine, we have acids and bases forming. So, we need something in the oil to "neutralize" them. And how we do that, is usually a high amount weak acid or base in the oil itself. This is a buffer solution, but...we'll not go into there for the moment.

So, if the oxidation number is high, we would have "more acids" in solution. I do not know if the max number is 100 in the case of this analysis report.

But yes, maybe that will clarify things up a little.

 

[dtt004]

Yes, I do not know why they gave you that scale when the report is reading numbers outside of that range. It looks like they only go from 0-4...which is odd.

Regardless, I would not worry about it because everything looks fine in the engine in terms of wear metals.

Fuel dilution could be because of extra fuel going into the oil. As an automotive engineer, the easiest way for us to add power is to add fuel. Since you are running at twice the power that it normally comes rated from the factory, I am assuming the fueling was modified to increase the air-fuel mixture. Unfortunately, that comes at the cost of increased emissions and less effective "complete combustion." So we find some unburnt fuel...usually in 3 places: the spark plugs, the emissions equipment, and the oil. The upside to increased fuel is obviously more power due to a greater amount of fuel = greater amount of energy, and also a denser air fuel mixture. As you know, fuel serves as a cooling agent as well as the combustible. I do not know if the engine is direct injected (fuel is injected into the cylinder, rather than the intake port), but if it is, you may also encounter greater fuel dilution as well.

Fuel is harmful to oil because gasoline is a very strong solvent. This comes from its chemical structure, as it is a very non-polar solution. That is why ethanol and gasoline mix, but shouldn't be mixed, because water is attracted. Then we see a phase separation of gasoline and water, and when your engine takes that in...big trouble. Good news is that it only happens if the fuel is sitting for a long period of time.

Anyways, greater fuel dilution does that: it dilutes your fuel, weakening the bonds between those aforementioned benzene rings. Oil is also non-polar. "Like dissolves like." Gasoline = non polar. Oil = non polar. Gasoline will dissolve oil basically. Ever wondered why gas/oil do not mix with water? It is because water is polar. That is why they separate rather than react.

 

[nooner]

So the high oxidation causes acid, but the higher TBN (5.1) in my case is good as it can neutralize the acid.

And the higher nitration causes sludge, but since I high detergent levels, that cleans the sludge. Nitration doens't mean sludge is present not tells you how much sludge is present, it means it can form that much eaiser. So if you have a high nitration, you also need a high detergent count to cancel that?

So it makes sludge at a higher rate than a car that had 1 nitration (or 0 if that is possible), but hopefully the detergents clean that up?

I do appreciate the dumbed down response and the sophisticated version. I might not understand it all now, but in the future and the more I learn the more it might make sense. I honetly didn't really understand TBN before now, and I now have a better grasp of it now even if I don't understand it fully yet.

Sorry, I confused you when I spoke of the 0-4 scale. That is a scale at the top they use to show serverity. It has no bearing on the oil or the numbers in the report. It is an arbitray number they give. With the oxidation being a 0 and the nitration being a 1. The actual nitraion number was 22 as seen in the report.

I am well aware of tuning and AFR ect and tuned (FIDC change)it myself as best as I can untill full control tuning is possible. I prefer to run a 11.5AFR at WOT so I know it is rich, but assumed that fuel is still being burned and/or the ring seals would prevent that fuel from getting into the oil. I know that isn't optimal, but I feel it is conservatively safe untill I get spark timing control. It is port fuel injection BTW, not DI.

Thanks again for the input/knowledge. Most of that (oil related stuff) is new to me.

 

[nooner]

Opps edit time ran out...

I have also read synthetics have very low ash content and little if any impurity. As a result, if oil burn-off does occur, there is little or no ash left behind to leave sludge and deposits on engine surfaces. so even with the higher nitration making the sludge process more likely, with the use of syhtetics and detergents, would it be accurate to say sludge isn't a real factor? Maybe that is where the 0-4 scale comes in. They are letting you know your are a 1, so you have a higher potential for sludge, but it is nomral and won't negatively affect you?

 

[dtt004]

Exactly. You are correct. No worries, it's always good when we get to know more about the properties of the oil...helps us understand what makes things tick.

It's kind of hard to understand at first...I tend to explain oils and their properties at the chemistry level...I am a chemical engineer so I kind of go overboard.

A TBN of 5.1 is still very high. You will not have to worry about acid buildup wreaking havoc on your engine. I wouldn't worry about nitration numbers. The engine is still very new, the oil analysis results look good, nothing is out of the ordinary. Sludge buildup is a rarity in today's engines, and today's oils. They are both so well engineered you will not have to worry as long as you regularly do oil changes. The detergents in today's oils, meeting the API standards, have very robust additive packages. Lack of detergents is definitely not a concern haha.

5000 miles is fine, I wouldn't worry about it. You can also try 7500 if you feel like it. However, I would keep it within the owner's manual recommendations because the car is still under warranty (or not?)

 

[dtt004]

Good analysis. Synthetics, because of their chemical makeup, can be nearly identical to each other because of synthetic manipulation in the lab. What this means is that they can hold more detergents, and also more desirable properties such as greater cold flowability.

So yes, with today's engines and oils, sludge isn't a factor as long as you regularly change your oil and other things like emissions related equipment (ex. PCV valve)

 

[nooner]

lol, the manufacture recommends 4.8k miles with normal use but 3k for "servere" which is pretty much all 45 states (according to the conditions) lol. Just trying a save a few bucks if I can by extending it, if it lead to damage it wouldn't be worth it, but it looks/sounds like I should be able to get away with it.

But my warranty is quote vioded at the power levels. Which is fine, I take care of my stuff and PMCS often it and know what is going on for the most part and take the responsibility and risk of running the power levels I am. Kind of why I want to make sure the oil is good to go and I use a 30 weight.

I lost a good 3 mpg going from a 20 weight to a 30, but I think it is worth it. My redline is raised 1k (to 7.5k) from stock levels so I feel safer with a 30 weight.

I think the 0w and better synthetic cold pour point helped keep the wear metals down this winter.

Thanks again for your insight.

 

[unDummy]

Not worth trying to save a few bucks. Keep your OCI at 5k or less. If you wanted to save money, don't tune it to twice the HP.

Sampling method should be after a normal commute or drive. Don't try to 'cater' to UOA for the oil sample.

Fuel dilution is high and is reason enough to change the oil.
Viscosity is low for the type oil and caused by the fuel dilution.

Engine wear is minimal so you did not reaching the breaking point of the motoril:boost:fuel combination.

 

[yaris0128]

TBN of a 5.2 after over 16k? Thats impressive.

 

[Artem]

Seems silly trying to "save" a few bucks on oil changes, which are relatively cheap compared to the mods done to the car / car purchase to begin with.

I wouldn't be thinking about extended if i was doubling the stock power rating.

 

[mitsuman47]

Those are some really informative posts dtt004. Thanks!

 

[Scienceman]

+1 thanks.

nice car nooner!