Generator vs Inverter Generator

[Rust_Belt_Pete]

I have the 9500 version. Thanks for saving me the time wasted searching for that group!

I know cursing is banned here but if I was to share some of the quotes thrown at me I would be in trouble.
I was reminded of the average reading, comprehension and critical thinking ability of our population.

Any way I still have to finish the break in of the generator before I hook it up and use it properly.

 

[Pablo]

Still starts right up

 

[thastinger]

Four 100 Ah 12.8 volt batteries (about $200 each) is 5.12 kWh stored energy. That will run a refrigerator alone for a few days.

Watch out for no-load consumption of inverters. If you leave the inverter on constantly to power something like a refrigerator that only runs intermittently, the inverter itself can drain quite a bit from the battery. It's an important specification to consider when buying an inverter.

It is not. The inverter will shut down on low voltage when those batteries are at 50% state of charge.

 

[mk378]

It is not. The inverter will shut down on low voltage when those batteries are at 50% state of charge.

That is not true. The LFP holds up a higher and more steady voltage during discharge. An inverter designed for the same nominal voltage lead acid system will have no problem staying on.

 

[Pablo]

That is not true. The LFP holds up a higher and more steady voltage during discharge. An inverter designed for the same nominal voltage lead acid system will have no problem staying on.

It will shut off with voltage drop first is the way I read it.

 

[Donald]

If I got this I could power both heat pumps in my house and all my neighbors (except the annoying one next door). He would hear the generator though.

 

[ctechbob]

It is not. The inverter will shut down on low voltage when those batteries are at 50% state of charge.

LifePO4 is a totally different animal. You can safely run them down to practically 0%, their discharge curve is very flat.

 

[ctechbob]

If I got a Victron and say $1000 worth of LifePO4 batteries how long would your average (newish) home refrigerator run? Obviously refrig does not run the compressor all the time. Are we talking an hour? Half day? Day?

A single fridge? Days. Spend another couple hundred on about 4-600 watts worth of solar panels and a charge controller and unless you are completely stuck under a nuclear winter type cloud it would be indefinite.

Or just use a small generator to recharge the batteries when needed.

If you use a Multiplus, all you would need to do is have about a 2000 watt generator, limit the input current to the multiplus (you need nothing else to do this, it is just a setting in the Multiplus) and recharge the batts when needed.

 

[ctechbob]

Watch out for no-load consumption of inverters. If you leave the inverter on constantly to power something like a refrigerator that only runs intermittently, the inverter itself can drain quite a bit from the battery. It's an important specification to consider when buying an inverter.

Indeed. I'm sitting here watching my Multiplus since I just turned off the DC circuit in the camper. The shunt is reporting about 5-8 watts of idle power, and that is with a Wyze smart plug plugged in as well as 4 outlets with usb chargers built in that should pull a tiny bit of idle current.

That's pretty good for a 3000VA inverter.

 

[thastinger]

That is not true. The LFP holds up a higher and more steady voltage during discharge. An inverter designed for the same nominal voltage lead acid system will have no problem staying on.

Between 10.2-10.8VDC is the automatic low voltage shutdown voltage for most PSW inverters. I believe you had recommended 12V lead acid batteries to him, so he will not be able to draw the full capacity from the batteries(for purposes of potential energy storage).
He would need 8 of the 6V 235Ah golf cart batteries, wired in series for 48V to get anything usable to run a fridge for a couple of days. He would have 3K in a decent setup like that. His best bet is to buy a blue or red 2K inverter gen and a 5 gallon gas can.

 

[mk378]

No we're definitely talking about lithium iron phosphate. In this application they are a lot better than lead.

 

[thastinger]

LifePO4 is a totally different animal. You can safely run them down to practically 0%, their discharge curve is very flat.

View attachment 252846

LiFePo4 is actually worse. If you drain a 3.7V 18650 cell down to 3.0V it will be forever dead.
The manufacturers make you think it is better because they won't let you kill the cells by over discharging them, the onboard BMS shuts the battery pack off before it happens. They get around it by adding additional cells to get the desired capacity without draining the cells to the point of death. Every battery has a lifespan and the higher the depth of discharge per cycle, the shorter the life.

 

[thastinger]

No we're definitely talking about lithium iron phosphate. In this application they are a lot better than lead.

Ok, you said 12.8V so I assumed you meant FLA.
A 4S LiFePo4 pack is 14.8V

 

[nomas]

I thought this was Inverter versus Non Inverter ?

 

[Ausfahrt]

Yeah, I agree, though by us there will always be a gas station.

Not necessarily. In a widespread power outage event the gas stations won't have power to run the gas pumps. I have encountered this situation first hand so it's good to have a minimalist small inverter generator just for essentials that uses much less fuel if you can no longer acquire fuel for your whole house generator.

Fuel deliveries to your local gas stations can also be limited.

 

[alarmguy]

Not necessarily. In a widespread power outage event the gas stations won't have power to run the gas pumps. I have encountered this situation first hand so it's good to have a minimalist small inverter generator just for essentials that uses much less fuel if you can no longer acquire fuel for your whole house generator.

Fuel deliveries to your local gas stations can also be limited.

Agree, not necessarily.
Where we live very small chance of that happening and would not be worth it for me personally to take into account that situation.

I do agree and learned from this thread. If we get one, it will be an inverter. Most likely a dual fuel because I dont really need to prepare much for a possible once every decade power outage. Actually in the last 20 years we lost power for any significant amount of time only once and it lasted for only 4 hours in our other home in South Carolina.
Now we are at the coast, so it might pay to be ready for the once every 10 year storm. I dont know but I most likely at some point may get a small inverter to power the refrigerator, plus have a small room air conditioner stored with the inverter (in case) and to power some lights and a TV. I have made the decision to forget about installing a switch for the breaker panel and a more powerful unit. It makes no sense to me where we live.

Im almost sure I will procrastinate on this into doing nothing but I never know, if I get bored one day and feel like buying something I may do it. The inverter thing is good to know.

 

[Ausfahrt]

Agree, not necessarily.
Where we live very small chance of that happening and would not be worth it for me personally to take into account that situation.

I do agree and learned from this thread. If we get one, it will be an inverter. Most likely a dual fuel because I dont really need to prepare much for a possible once every decade power outage. Actually in the last 20 years we lost power for any significant amount of time only once and it lasted for only 4 hours in our other home in South Carolina.
Now we are at the coast, so it might pay to be ready for the once every 10 year storm. I dont know but I most likely at some point may get a small inverter to power the refrigerator, plus have a small room air conditioner stored with the inverter (in case) and to power some lights and a TV. I have made the decision to forget about installing a switch for the breaker panel and a more powerful unit. It makes no sense to me where we live.

Im almost sure I will procrastinate on this into doing nothing but I never know, if I get bored one day and feel like buying something I may do it. Thursday inverter thing is good to know.

You seem to be prepared and aware of the potential scenarios.

 

[ctechbob]

LiFePo4 is actually worse. If you drain a 3.7V 18650 cell down to 3.0V it will be forever dead.
The manufacturers make you think it is better because they won't let you kill the cells by over discharging them, the onboard BMS shuts the battery pack off before it happens. They get around it by adding additional cells to get the desired capacity without draining the cells to the point of death. Every battery has a lifespan and the higher the depth of discharge per cycle, the shorter the life.

They don't use 18650 sized cells in the packs that I'm talking about. There's 4 large cells in there wired in series.

And yes, the BMS has to be functioning properly or you might end up with a damaged pack. That's no different than making sure you treat a lead chemistry cell properly. If you abuse them, they'll die as well.

Still stands, LifePO4 is miles better than lead chemistry batteries.

 

[Donald]

Agree, not necessarily.
Where we live very small chance of that happening and would not be worth it for me personally to take into account that situation.

I do agree and learned from this thread. If we get one, it will be an inverter. Most likely a dual fuel because I dont really need to prepare much for a possible once every decade power outage. Actually in the last 20 years we lost power for any significant amount of time only once and it lasted for only 4 hours in our other home in South Carolina.
Now we are at the coast, so it might pay to be ready for the once every 10 year storm. I dont know but I most likely at some point may get a small inverter to power the refrigerator, plus have a small room air conditioner stored with the inverter (in case) and to power some lights and a TV. I have made the decision to forget about installing a switch for the breaker panel and a more powerful unit. It makes no sense to me where we live.

Im almost sure I will procrastinate on this into doing nothing but I never know, if I get bored one day and feel like buying something I may do it. The inverter thing is good to know.

Right, it all depends. If I owned a giant warehouse with $1M worth of frozen or refrigerated food I might want to be self sufficient. Maybe two diesel generators. And a large tank of diesel fuel.

He can 't move his food. I can toss wife & dog in a truck and drive.

 

[mva]

Interesting thread. Power outages are pretty common where I live. Last power outage I ran 2 fridges, lights and some electronics off the 120v, 1500 watt outlet in my Prius Prime. Fully charged battery will provide power for a very long time and then the gas engine will cycle to keep the power going. I tried this for fun for a couple hours just to see if it would work.

I do have a 5500 watt (7500 peak) Champion generator with electric start wired into my panel with a lockout plate so that the main breaker must be off before turning on the generator breaker. This provides 240v to run the well pump. And I just isolate the other big loads such as the hot water tank. It also works great and I have had no issues with the power quality - everything works as normal including electronics. We have a wood stove for heat.