Generator suggestions

[JHZR2]

Hi,

My parents have a weekend home that they built long ago in thre Poconos. Weve gone out to it on weekends, etc for years. My GF and I still go out there many weekends, to visit with my family, etc.

The power, though better than it was 15 years ago, still isnt really reliable. There is usually once in the winter at the bare minimum where there is no power for a good long time...

And then of course there is no furnace (coal/oil unit), no water (well pump), etc, etc.

So, Im thinking of the holidays already and am thinking of getting them a generator.

Diesel, like a spark assisted diesel gen would be optimal... between our diesel cars and heating oil, we have a pretty good supply of fuel to run the thing... but even the small 2kW gensets (Im familiar with the diesel/JP-8 MEP military units) are quite heavy, etc.

So, Id prefer a diesel, but a gasser would be good too. In reality, it woul dbe used to allow the furnace to run, run the well pump, and cycle the refrigerator. These things dont need to be done all at the same time, they can be done one by one.

Things to keep in mind: The genset would be outside (duh!), things would get plugged into it individually, one by one to run them for some time (Ill have to see about the furnace, but I imagine its doable, even if the furnace runs off of 240V). The power would be delivered up to 50 ft, through a very heavy gauge extension cord.

I know from my experience with MEPs, that if gensets arent loaded properly, then it can be trouble, and they break down a lot easier. So, id prefer to strive for a little lower powered one, so that were running closer to full.

Looking through my home depot book it appears that the well water pump would be the biggest thing: 1000W running, and an additional 2000 starting watts. If I take that into regard (I dont know what the unit is actually rated at), Id say a 3kWe unit is the smallest I ought to get. This is a bummer, as coleman makes a nice handheld 1500We unit.

So, any suggestions of a fair priced, long-lasting, efficient, high quality, quiet ~3kWe unit, preferably diesel (unless it is too awkward, pricey, or heavy)??? If a gasser is the best bet,is Honda the best bet? Are B&S engines good for generators?

Any suggestions or even starting points would be appreciated.

Thanks!

JMH

[ September 12, 2005, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: JHZR2 ]

 

[labman]

I lucked in finding a lightly used, factory reconditioned Coleman Powermate 6250 at Home Depot for $371. HD, Lowes, and Sears were all sold out early this year after an ice storm. Some turkey bought it, used it for a few days and then returned it. HD's loss, and my gain. Should be able to handle our furnace, well, refrigerator, freezer, and a few lights with no more than selective connection. Some people in the area were without power 2 weeks including out church. The unit has more than enough to keep its boilers going if I have to.

The bad part is legally hooking it into my home system. It looks like I need some huge $200 dollar switch.

 

[JHZR2]

Thats why Id just unplug the refrigerator from the wall, plug it into the generator... then, after a while, do the same with the well pump, and hopefully (Id have to check) the furnace.

I am worried at having a genset that is underutilized... the military has a lot of premature breakdown because of improper loading/balancing of gensets - usually there are too many that are underutilized.

Id venture to guess that 80% of rated power is about whats necessary for optimum life???

JMH

 

[haley10]

I was in the Air Force and I don't remember this particular problem?? I have an engineering background, so I'd like to know the theory behind premature failure. I don't understand the under loading theory.

What components are failing??

Of course, no need to go overboard on capacity either.

 

[JHZR2]

Youve got a PM

 

[haley10]

quote:

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Originally posted by labman:


The bad part is legally hooking it into my home system. It looks like I need some huge $200 dollar switch.

---

One of our power line workers was killed because a homeowner's generator was back-feeding the otherwise deenergized power line. You need to do it right for safety.

 

[Al]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JHZR2:

Originally posted by Al:
[qb] Each of these things would be disconnected from the wall (I know 100% the refrig. and the well pump plug in) when they were running off the generator, just connected to it by a 10 gauge extension cord of about 50ft.
JMH

---

You won't need that heavy an extension for the refrig (probably) its probably less than 7 amps. Maybe the well pump is another story. You might want to buy a couple extensions. then you won't have to change things around so much. They are pretty cheap. And make sure you give the system a thorough testing with everything just as it will need to function. You will be amazed how much you will be able to simplify and probably have it more "at the ready". Keep us up to date. But I would still give some additional thought to that other backup heat. (Kerosene)

 

[haley10]

Checked out the Coleman PowerMate website. Mola has good info.

 

[416Rigby]

www.hardydiesel.com has a little 5KW unit that may be perfect for your needs.

 

[JHZR2]

Al,

Actually we have a number of small propane units (mobile ones) that work pretty well... I dont know if theyd be good enough to keep the house pipes from freezing, but they keep us comfortable...

We have a 10ga 50ft extension for our electric power washer... thats why I mentioned it. Since we have it, might as well use it. We have a good variety of other cords too, so they can be customized as much as necessary (and the overall length kept to a minimum)...

Thanks for the insight.

JMH

 

[Pablo]

Holy crap some of the prices and fuel consumption rates for the diesels are amazing. Tempting too!

http://www.hardydiesel.com/gen/5kMedWeb.pdf

http://www.hardydiesel.com/gen/8kw.html

 

[labman]

I am really concerned about having my generator both legal and convenient. I am sure when the electric company workers come through to restore power, they take a good look at the houses with lights and a generator chugging away out back.

My furnace and 240 volt pump are both hard wired into the house. Stringing extension cords in to the refrigerator and a few lamps would be bad enough, but down into the craw space would be worse. Again I set up plugs ahead of time, I may as well go with the switch.

I am also thinking of looking into a natural gas conversion. Be nice if I could swap back and forth using which ever is available.

If I put a bunch of time and money into this and never need it, great.

 

[michaelc80]

I have a 6500 watt (I think) Coleman that powers most of the house when the electric goes out. I have it set so I can plug it into a generator outlet and flip the switches to change the power over to the generator. This isolates the generator circuits so I can't put power back through the electical lines.

When I first thought about a generator I thought the same as you-just something to power the fridge and furnace if I need it. However it is really nice to be able to power up nearly everything in the house and not mess with moving cords everywhere. It's not uncommon for us to loose power for 6-8 hours. There have been a couple times in the winter when we've lost power for a day or so. I'm really glad I went with a bigger unit and wired it into the circuit breaker.

Wiring the generator box was simple. Anyone with a screwdriver can do it. Select which circuits you want powered (I selected all of the lights, most of the outlets (no shop or garage), furnace, freezer and both refridgerators. The generator I have runs everything except the air conditioner with no problem.

 

[The_Jeff]

This raises the question, do furnaces and well pumps have to be hard-wired in under code? The "emergency shut off switch" most likely has to be a permanent part of the equation, so one in the basement doesn't accidentally plug the furnace into another outlet when someone upstairs is trying to shut it down. Lucky for me, both my furnace and pump are 120v, 20A.

A couple boxes, outlets, and plugs ought to be $10-20, and provide an easy way for someone not intimate with your wiring (or yourself, scatterbrained due to an emergency) to power up without any chance of backfeeding.

 

[labman]

quote:

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Originally posted by michaelc80:
snip....

Wiring the generator box was simple. Anyone with a screwdriver can do it. Select which circuits you want powered (I selected all of the lights, most of the outlets (no shop or garage), furnace, freezer and both refridgerators. The generator I have runs everything except the air conditioner with no problem.

---

?????????? To be legal, you need to break the connection to the meter in a foolproof way. This means disconnecting the incoming hot 00 wire and routing it to a 100-200 amp double throw switch. Not my idea of simple. I guess you could wait until you are sure the power is going to stay off for a while.

 

[MolaKule]

The Coleman Powermate in 6250 surge and 5k continuous should be just what you need. It has a fairly quiet B&S engine. Remember, if the engine ever goes, you can find a replacement B&S almost anywhere. However, the later model B&S engines are more reliablke than the newer Kohler's in my opinion.

Yes, make sure the main breaker is always "OFF" before connecting the generator.

I run my generator's 240V into a spearate 40 Amp circuit breaker with a three-wire 10 guage cable to the Generator's 240V outlet.

Ran 8.5 days straight last winter with nary a problem. This generator runs about 6 hours on a full tank of petro.

Never heard of underloads damaging any generator.

You need to run these generators for about 15 minutes each month to refresh the fuel in the tank and to keep the armature magnetization up to par.

 

[Al]

I have had a 6.5 Generator Set for years. My dad built it. It is belt drive from a 10HP Cast Iron Horizontal shaft Briggs with a Winco Generator. The pulley is geared up so the Generator only runs at 2800 rpm. So it gets around 5KW.

I have an illegal (did I say that

) setup..30Amp breaker backfeeds into the panel. I have a male Plug on the generator and a female 230V Plug mounted in a receptacle on my carport. I close breakers as needed to supply the part of the house that I need.

The problem with my system is that shen the poop hits the fan and you lose electricity you are depending on something that could fail and possibly mess up your equipment.

You would (in my humble opinion) be better off by installing a reliable source of backup heat that requires no electricity. I have a propane stove that is my normal heat for most of my house and it requires nothing (except propane to operate). I also have a Kerosene Heater with 10 gallons of Kerosene as an ultimate backup. The Kerosene heater might work for you. You can always buy a small generator with an extension to power your refrig or even your well pump with a double pole switch. The amount of fuel required to run these things (especially gasoline) is problametic. Oh yea I have a digital voltmeter that I put a plug on that can be plugged into outlets to make sure the generator puts out the appropriate voltage. You get lots of voltage droop and varience (due to inherent governors of small engines) My 2 cents.

 

[JHZR2]

quote:

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Originally posted by Al:
You can always buy a small generator with an extension to power your refrig or even your well pump with a double pole switch. The amount of fuel required to run these things (especially gasoline) is problametic. Oh yea I have a digital voltmeter that I put a plug on that can be plugged into outlets to make sure the generator puts out the appropriate voltage. You get lots of voltage droop and varience (due to inherent governors of small engines) My 2 cents.

---

You got my idea just right... All I ant is a small generator that I can selectively plug one thing in and run... NOT connect to the house electrical circuit.

The thinking is to run at one point the refrigerator to keep stuff cold, then at a seperate tme run the well pump to be able to flush toilets, then at another time run the furnace to keep the pipes from freezing.

Each of these things would be disconnected from the wall (I know 100% the refrig. and the well pump plug in) when they were running off the generator, just connected to it by a 10 gauge extension cord of about 50ft.

fuel definitely is problematic, but in reality actual power needs arent tht much - we still would sit in the dark, we just want to keep the food fresh, toilets flushing and pipes from freezing - taking care of each of those things one at a time, bit by bit.

Maybe a bit unconventional from how one typically uses a generator... we'd use it more like if powering a campsite or jobsite, only we'd be powering the actual home appliances.

Thanks,

JMH

 

[doubleclutch]

I have a Northern Tools "NorthStar" 13,500 surge with 10,000 continuous watts, Honda powered. I started out with a 2400 watt Sears, then stepped up to a Generac 6,000 continuous watt unit, now a Northstar. I have a weather proof receptacle under my breaker box that is mounted on the side of the house. Since all my breakers were taken, we installed a piggyback breaker that when in the on position, will make the entire panel hot. This setup will operate the entire house, however, I do not operate the heat pump. I have two kerosene heaters for use in the cold weather, with at least a 10 gallon reserve. I also have stickers in the panel box to remind me to turn off the main breaker. We are on the end of the power run and out in the country so we are one of the last ones to get our power restored. When severe weather threatens, I make sure I have an ample supply of fuel for the generator also. You have to be responsible for your own self and your family so you prepare for the worst. We have been without power several times over the last few years for at least a week at a time from hurricanes and ice storms.